First law of thermodynamics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Energy can be transformed (changed from one form to another), but it can neither be created nor destroyed."

 

EXACTLY!!!

It's simple, really. Your alternator is not 100% efficient. It doesn't convert all of the power transmitted to it into electricity, a great deal is converted to HEAT. The HHO generator is not 100% efficient, it also generates heat when breaking the water into the 2 base elemnts. Finally, your engine itself is not 100% efficient, it wastes a lot of energy as heat.

 

really and truely even hybrids are scams they were making more fuel efficent cars in the 80-90's.. using bio fuels like ethanol do not make fiscal sense ethanol gets worse milage and costs about the same as regular dino fuel. the only alternative fueled vehicle that seems to be worth while is diesels. but thanks to the government and their infinate wisdom the emissions and all the other crap mandated for them makes you pucker at the idea of putting anything other than diesel in it... global warming is a farse and the government should leave the carmakers alone
k rant over

 

Actually hybrids do make sense in some cases. Since they have regenerative braking they are very efficient in stop and go driving. The regenerative braking generates electricity while stopping the vehicle, and uses that electricity for moving the vehicle later. In this way they really do save fuel.

 

Well you assumed wrong when reading my post. Maybe I wasn't clear...

An engine can run on hydrogen, that's been proven years and years ago.

The problem is getting the hydrogen. Electrolysis is the most inefficent method of producing hydrogen. My example of how many amps it takes to generate enough hydrogen to gain a 40% increase in economy was just that... an example, simply to prove how inefficient it is to produce HHO in a vehicle. I think everyone and their mom's already know that you can't generate 1500 amps from an alternator. I did specifically state that most HHO generators would run on only 10-30 amps, and that the amount of HHO that is created from that amount of power is pretty insignificant, given the amount of air that an engine will take in. I never claimed it would increase mileage based on that information.

So, in a way, sure if you had enough energy input, you could make enough hydrogen to run an engine. Problem is, where does that energy come from? Definately not something that can be generated from an alternator. Mark, I think you can now see that we are really on the same page here.

As for actually losing mileage by installing an HHO kit because of the extra "strain" on the alternator.... well that's old school thinking. Good luck actually seeing a drop in mileage in a real life test. Years ago, sure that was true, especially back before electronic fuel injection. Modern vehicles run alternators that are capable of higher output than cars from 30 years ago (because of the electronic engine management), so adding something like an HHO kit really doesn't put as much strain on the alternator as it would on an older car. And alternators today can especially handle more than the really old school DC generators. Saying an HHO kit will drop mileage simply by being hooked up is like saying my stereo system in my truck causes me to lose mileage. My Kenwood amp sucks more power from the alternator than most HHO kits.

 

Seriously, you need to hit the science books a little harder.

The bottom line here is you cannot extract any more energy from buring the HHO gas in your engine as you used to create the HHO from water in the first place (REGARDLESS OF THE PROCESS USED TO MAKE HHO). This is basic physics.

I'll reword that to make it easier to understand: You cannot get more energy from burning HHO in your engine than you took to split the water into HHO in the first place. If you use one kilowatt of energy to split the water into your magic HHO mixture, then you cannot create more than one kilowatts of energy from burning the magic HHO.

All draw from your alternator puts a load on your engine. It takes more energy to spin an alternator with a 30 amp draw than it does a 20 amp draw. It takes more gasoline (energy) to spin that alternator with that added draw.

Using an HHO generator, you really will drop mileage when you try this. You end up burning more fuel. Why is that?

(Here comes the science)

First, 1 kilowatt of energy equals 1.341 horsepower. It takes 1.314 horsepower to spin an alternator to make 1 kilowatt of electricity, in a perfect world.

But, an automotive alternator is around 60% efficient. That means you need 1.341 horsepower to make .6 kilowatts of electricity, or 2.235 horsepower to make one kilowatt.

The laws of energy (as mentioned above) dictate that you cannot get more power out of your HHO mixture than you put into it. This means if you burn the magic HHO gas created with 1 kilowatt of electricity you cannot get more than 1.314 horsepower out of the energy created by burning the mixture. Suddenly, because your alternator isn't 100% efficient, you are .921 horsepower short of breaking even in energy.

But wait, your engine isn't 100% efficient either! The very best internal combustion engine is rated at 43% thermal efficiency. So, you burn 1 kilowatt worth of magic HHO gas in your engine, you get back .56502 horsepower.

Uh oh, but you need 2.235 horsepower to make up for the kilowatt drag on your alternator! Where does the energy for the extra 1.66998 horserpower come from?

From burning more gasoline, that's where.

 

Driving around with a large draw on the alternator will certainly cause mileage to be lower. Not much but it will be lower. Its like a brake applied making the same heat as the alt is. Or close to it..So if you are cranking out 2k watts from your alternator imagine how much your brakes would have to be on to create 2k watts of heat...my guess easily 1 mpg at 60 mph..Just a thought


Dick

 

OK, HHO does not work as advertised. I would like to interject the following. To the people clutching on to the idea of increasing fuel economy by 1-3mpgs, turn your efforts to aerodynamics and making your current engine burn the fuel it's pumping more effectivly. The 08 line changed the air dam by a mere 2-3" and gained mpgs, I'd like to see more people out tinkering with their own vehicles and less calling scam artists. Most of the crazy ideas you see being sold today are older than I am, but we as a society are to stupid to realize these are failed ideas. Most of us have a basic understanding of physics, and the engines in our trucks, lets put that to a functional use.

Oh-crap I just turned in to that guy on a soap box. Stand by, I'll be back to my sarcastic self in a moment.

 

Me hit the science books a little harder? How about you do some research. EPA and SAE testing has shown in almost all cases a net zero change in fuel mileage with HHO systems. One vehicle did see an actual 2% gain in mileage in SAE testing, with a few seeing a 1% gain. Hardly any showed any sign of decreased fuel mileage. So the result? HHO kits are pretty much useless.

Thanks, but I understand that concept already. On top of that, I never once said that concept wasn't true, and I don't plan to argue against it now or ever.

Good luck measuring that on newer vehicles. Like I mentioned earlier, older vehicles saw this occurance far more often than newer ones. Can it happen on newer vehicles? Sure, but in most cases the amount of extra fuel consumed is so small that it can't be measured. Even SAE testing agrees with this when they tried out various HHO kits. So let me spell this out to you in simple terms: I'm not disagreeing with you, but the amount of fuel used to power a small additional load on an alternator is going to be extremely hard to measure on newer vehicles. I even said it with this exact quote "Good luck actually seeing a drop in mileage in a real life test." You'll get a bigger change in mileage based on wind direction than you will ever see with an HHO kit, either positive or negative gains.

One more time, SAE and EPA testing of HHO found this occurance to not even be measurable, since the change was so insignificant.

After all that science, now try to wrap your head around the idea of a pulse wave. See how much draw that puts on an alternator. That should keep you busy for a while.

One more time, I'm not and have not at all disagreed with the concepts presented. However, the changes are so small and insignificant, that you'll never see a measureable drop in mileage from the power draw from using an HHO kit. On the flip side, you won't see a measureable increase in mileage either.



Seriously, I don't get why people insist on arguing this. All it has been in this thread is taking what I'm saying out of context. Not once have I ever in this thread advocated HHO. In fact, I stated in plain English not to purchase a kit, as the industry is a scam. I've also never indicated that anyone will actually see real life gains in using an HHO system. If someone wants to play with HHO, by all means, go for it. You'll never see me put one on my truck. As for the ones trying to rip my posts apart, please unwad the panties

 

My aftermarket stereo system draws more power than any HHO kit. Mileage change at 60 MPH with my stereo blasting my ears off: ZERO.

 

We agree on this point, but could you please provide a link to the information of this mythical EPA and SAE testing, from the source and not from one of the companies selling these products?

 

Here is a scientific study done by Popular Mechanics and Dateline NBC, using test equipment and the EPA testing FORMAT which concludes that if you use these products you will see a small decrease in your fuel mileage.

HHO Fuel Myths - Water Car Gas Boosters Debunked - Popular Mechanics

Oddly enough the same outcome my science predicted. How odd.

 

You also may want to watch this video, which has nothing to do with HHO.

YouTube - Open-mindedness

 

I've been looking for the specific article I read a while back, since I had a hunch you would ask. It had some good information about HHO, the history, scientific testing, etc. If I find it, I'll post it up. It's an interesting read. IIRC, the vehicle that saw the 2% gain in mileage was a Chrysler product (I keep thinking it was a Jeep, but I can't remember for sure).

In the mean time, here is a Popular Mechanics test of an HHO kit. This is a quote from the article. In it, you can see that the author sees no change in milage. At the same time, the author still notes that there is a small change in voltage in the electrical system of his car. So in short, he sees the HHO kit draw power, but his mileage remains unchanged:
And the link to the article: http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...html?series=19


This next article actually mentions some of the SAE testing, but also tells how these scam artists are only using bits and pieces of the research to try and validate their "claims" that HHO actually works. But the article doesn't give links to the SAE sources. However, in the article most seem to agree that HHO does nothing. A few say it might help a few percentage points at most, some say it could even hurt mileage. Put all the information together, and common sense would probably tell you that these systems don't do much of anything either positive or negative.
"Run Your Car On Water" Scheme Could Leave Consumers All Wet

Anyway, there is some reading to start with. Like I said, if I find that specific article that I read a while back, I'll post a link. It's been a few months though, and I never did bookmark it.

 

LOL, we both posted Popular Mechanics articles.

However, your article has one small difference:
The system used not only an HHO generator kit, but other extras installed too. One to note is the electronic enhancements designed to trick the computer into using less fuel.

The article I posted is strictly an HHO kit, and nothing else.

Besides, the article you posted doesn't say how much the increase in fuel consumption really was. They only said it was a "tiny" increase. If their machines are within a 1% accuracy, you would never notice the change in mileage out in the real world on the road.

So, like I've said in my other posts, good luck actually seeing a difference in mileage with an HHO kit.