Not trying to defend Ford or its engineers or it's motors, just stating that high output hp motors aren't always better. Well, expect for bragging rights about what's printed on paper.

It's nice the Camaro advertises 422hp at the flywheel, but what are the true RWHP? There are plenty of sports cars out with amazing specs, but can't put that power to the ground as well. And it being overweight doesn't help. If you are at the end of your rope, fine, hop the fence and see if the grass is greener elsewhere. Will you be happy, who knows. Will the extra hp/lb-ft provide you satisfaction of possibly purchasing a lesser quality vehicle? Guess that depends on what your defenition of happiness and how big your pocket book is.

As long as the Mustang has been around, it's almost always provided less CID, but has always been competative. Just like the F150, may not lead the pack in the #'s game, but is very respectable and holds its own. Think to many people are worried about stop light to stop light performance, don't want to let someone else cut them off or get in front of them or simply want to brag or maybe they are trying to compensate for something. Personally, and again this is just my opinion, I want the best overall vehicle top to bottom, not simply the one with the hp/lb-ft bragging rights.

It's funny for years people were saying they want a more reliable/dependable car/truck, so Ford starts this route, but now many could care less about the overall car quality they want performance. Everyone I've known who's owned a 80's-'01 model year Camaro has thrown more money at it to keep them running than they have to improve performance. While the Mustang did have years with similar problems, but was far more superior in it's quality and build, allowing the owners to throw more money at it to increase performance and surpass the Camaros.

 

So your of the opinion that you can't have power and performance WITH high quality?

Has anyone been able to come up with anything quantifiable that says Gm trucks have more problems or Dodge? I really don't know, I don't think FORD, GM or DODGE know either otherwise the winner would be bragging. It's like politics...

Reason I am pushing for HP is because it's quantifiable. I know that it's the most HP. I would do the same if Ford gave me front and rear lockers, I would know it's the best off road, if it came with a winch as a off road package, then you have something...

All I am saying is things like "highest quality" is quantifiable for example who has the most rattles after 10,000 - 50,000 and 100,000 miles or the most reports of broken parts. Just show me the numbers.

If Ford can come and say, look we have 30,000 fixes for every million trucks made. GM and Dodge both have 100,000 fixes, I can know I have the highest quality trucks, everything else is just marketing.

 

What about the GT500.. 500hp right from the factory.. and available NOW.. not in 2010. Who leaves a mustang stock for very long anyway?

Ahh... I think it had more than a little to do with the cost of oil, the housing market collapse, and the stock market crash all this produced. Demand for anything with a V8 in it went right down the toilet this year, car makers have no money to spend on high end models and NPI anymore.

 

Sure you can have power and performance, it's been proven. But simply to state because a vehicle comes with the most stock hp/lb-ft doesn't been it has the best performance. It doesn't mean it's the best in it's class in any one or all aspects. Simply look at the 1/2 tons, the 09 F150 is on the bottom in the hp/lb-ft category, but tops in towing capacity, it's FX4 pkg, based on reviews so far, is a much better off-road pkg than what Chevy & Dodge offer. Sure it won't win many races on the strip, but has the advantage in other realms. Pick what best fits your needs and run with it. To each their own.

Problems are hard to track down. Some is speculation, others are factual. The more cars you produce, the more likely you are to have a problem as there are more chances for errors. Each make/model has different issues, like Dodge trannies, Ford 5.4L spakr plugs and things of this nature. How many are impacted vs how many are actually reported. This is much harder to track, especially once vehicles are outside their warranty.

You can push for HP, it's nice to have. But as you increase power, you also increase your chances of problems. Maybe the motor can withstand the output, but what about the tranny, the rear end, the driveline, etc. So just because the motor can push these figures, doesn't mean the rest of the vechicle is built to withstand the pounding on a day to day basis. Again this is part speculation but part factual.

 

Even though debating the Mustang vs Camaro comparison is somewhat off topic I figure " meh, what the hell "

The new Mustangs are not lightweight by any means. 422 hp at the flywheel is still more than what a stock Mustang puts out at the flywheel. Would the roughly 500 pound weight difference between the 2 compensate for the roughly 100 hp difference? Who knows? It took Ford how many years to catch up to Chevy's LS1 in regards to stock performance?

I do respect your opinion here but I do have one question. Why is the assumption ALWAYS made because someone wants the highest hp and tq numbers that "they" are always more concerned about drag racing or trying to compensate for something else?

But what's not to say the higher hp and tq vehicle HAS the best overall top to bottom package? I will say after riding in the new Dodge, it surpasses the current F150. But I guess as you stated, it's all opinion.

What's so wrong with that? Every manufacturer doesn't have a choice nowadays. They HAVE to build reliable/dependable products. It's a tough market out there as we all know. What happens to a company that doesn't cater to it's consumers demands? The consumers can and will shop elsewhere, brand loyality be damned! ( opinion once again )

Comparing 80's Camaro's to anything after 98 doesn't fly with me. I have know a few LS1 boys that had to spend money to keep the cars together, but the drivetrain was very solid. It's just as easy for an LS1 owner to drop 3 grand on their motor than a Mustang owner.

Good post BTW.

For the record, I have owned 2 - 5.0L Mustangs in my time and I was very pleased with them. I was only wishing I could have shoehorned an LS1 with the 6 speed into the engine bay....

Now back to regular programming....

 

These cars were going for unreal amounts of money with stealer mark ups ect... They now can be had for sticker but why? Why would I buy one when I can get a base vette that will out perform it in every facet you can think of for around 40K. Bang for the buck is what its all about and the GT500 really is a niche car.

Sorry, didnt mean to get off topic. Now back to the F150................

 

I love being quoted.

I don't really care about credibility. This is the internet after all.

But I'd say that most turbo diesel trucks are more fun to drive and if not faster stock, then definitely after a tuner. Just go down to the diesel forums and I think you'll get a lot of people that agree with me.

Mike

 

OK so now you change the argument. If bang for you buck is what you want go find a clean 5.0 coupe and start bolting stuff on, you'll match the Vette in just about every aspect for $20k.

Back to the trucks. I'm not going to say having more power in your truck isn't a good thing, it certainly is, I just don't see why some here insist it HAS to come from the dealer showroom like that. What's the point of having a 400hp F150 if every other guy that buys one can get the same thing? Why is having the same as everybody else something to brag about? Wouldn't it be better to have the only 400hp F150 in your town/city?

 

The Stang is not lightweight by any means, but like you stated, is roughly 500lbs lighter, give or take, which is a very slight advantage. The Camaro will put down better figures at the flywheel than the Stang too, I don't doubt this. Most likely put donwn better numbers on a dyno too, I don't doubt that either. What I'd like to see are some real world RWHP in comparison to their advertised HP. Then determine how much is lost through the driveline. How significant are these numbers, does it drop from 100hp to 80hp difference, who knows. Also, how much displacement is the Stang giving up to the Camaro? We all know Ford likes to play with smaller motors where as Chevy isn't shy about dropping in larger motors. I simply look at the 02-08 Ram 5.7L HEMI prior to the '07 Tundra release. That truck was the most powerful hp/lb-ft by the numbers, but had significantly more driveline loss than any of the other make/model 1/2 tons and could be outrun by the Titan, which was rated at a lot less hp/lb-ft. Even though we all know that Nissan under-estimated these figures. So to me the advertised #'s only hold their weight for some people and for so long. This is more the point I'm trying to convey.

I guess it's not ALWAYS the case, but I've come across way too many posts here stating "I'm leaving Ford and buying X Brand because it has Y ponies and the Ford doesn't". I understand that the #'s mean a lot to a certain demographic, and that's fine, to each their own. But if you try to rationalize with them about the rest of the trucks quality, it's a moot point and means nothing to them. Like many of the Tundra owners I've spoken to. They swear up and down that the Tundra is best, simply due to it's speed/power ratings. But they are unwilling to look at the build quality of the rest of the truck and understand the interior is cheap and ergonomics are lacking, sheet metal is thinner than most other 1/2 tons and a few other points. But again, I guess to each theri own.

The most powerful truck could just be the best from top to bottom. I'd want to assume that had Ford released the 6.2L in the F150, it would be the best top to bottom, including the motor. But no one vehicle is the best top to bottom. You have the best overall vehicle in its class, but usually lacks in certain areas. The Tundra has great power/speed, but lacks overall quality. The Ram has power/speed and a great ride. The F150 lacks this power/speed aspect (well by 1-2 seconds if that's really such a big issue in a 6K lb truck), but has great payload, towing capability trim levels and other key features. It's all in the persons opinion and what they want. Just to me, I'll sacrifice 1-2 seconds to purchase the best overall truck and aspect whatever few downfalls it does display.

Not trying to compare 80's to the '98+ models. More of comparing an 80's Stang to an '80s Camaro, or 90's of both. Heck, I owned a '69 Camaro with a 327 SB at one time and loved that car, boy was she a beast! Most of my friends are Chevy guys through and through. Chevy can do no wrong to them. Their Camaro's were usually slightly faster than my few Ford friends with Stangs. We had plenty of nights drinking and bickering over whos car was better, faster, more reliable etc. The ultimate item that always sticks out in my head with them is, the Camaro owners were usually dumping more money into their vehicles simply to keep them running and on the road than were my Stang friends. Could have been the particular years each of them owned. Could have been each individuals driving styles, just too many variables to consider which was truly better. But since those days I can not say which is more reliable and better to have, as from my experience, the Camaro was faster but cost much more to keep up on a day to day basis.

 

Point is, that 45 grand sticker at Ford buys you a 320hp truck and that same 45 grand buys you the same truck from Toyota, Dodge and GM with an extra 100 ponies to boot.

It's NEEDED to stay competitive in the market. I can guarantee you that ever member here would be ragging Toyota if they came out with 320 hp and all other manufactures came in at or near 400hp. No matter if the Toy had lockers or anything else. Seems like we have a lot of people that will buy whatever Ford tells them to buy. Instead of wanting and expecting the best.

Maybe that's why Ford joined Harley, least power and least bang for the buck but the highest profit margin?

Quit crying and make the Raptor

 

Using your philosophy, we should say Ford offers a tailgate step, bed side step, trailer brake control, sync, trailer sway control, roll stability control, tows more, hauls more and some other features most other makes do not offer. So couldn't we say those other makes aren't competative since they don't offer many of these items? Again one aspect does not make the vehicle the best, it's the overall product.

And exactly what do these extra ponies get you for your money? Bragging rights? To your destination a whopping 1-2 seconds quicker? What else exactly? They don't help you tow more. Don't help you haul more. Get an exhaust on any of them and they'll sound good.

If Toyota offered less HP/Lb-Ft than everyone else and was only 1-2 seconds slower, but had more payload/towing capacity, more interior space and was the better overall truck, what's there to complain about? Sure you'd have your Ford die hards at Toyota, but an unbiased person conducting a review would notice, hey for the money I get xyz from Toyota where as with the other makes/models, sure I get a few extra ponies letting me arrive at work a huge 5 seconds quicker than that Toyota owner but don't get the best product for the application purposes that I need. Well, unless you are going to simply use that extra few seconds on the strip.

I want the best and expect it. Am I satisfied with the 5.4L, power output, NO. But to simply claim one truck is better than another on one aspect, such as hp/lb-ft when it really has no advantage, is puzzling to me. Well, guess if you consider that huge 1-2 seconds difference you get from 100 extra ponies an advantage, well guess that's your right and opinion.

Maybe Ford & Harley joined because history is on their side and they both have an excellent tradition in their market. They have proven that even without the most powerful motor, they still make one hell of a product that is almost always better than its competition. No not in every area better, but in most areas they come out on top.

EDIT: Doesn't look like we'll ever agree, which is fine. I'll agree to disagree. For $45K you want the most hp/lb-ft. For my $45K, I want the best truck, whether it has the most hp/lb-ft or not. Simple as that.

 

Ohh.. that low blow, I'd agree if the F150 didn't handle and ride as well as the competition, couldn't tow as much, and broke down more often. But that's not the case so it seems that to some HP is the only factor defining "bang for your buck".

 

As so many have said it seems like a lot of people want more power just because other brands have it. But im almost certain that after you have gotten bored with your 1 sec quicker 0-60 runs that you will wish that you had all the goodies the Ford has. These are the things that are gonna matter in the long term and not how much HP you have. Braging rights seem to be more important than the truck it's self but hey If you could take the best from each truck and build one that is perfect that would be great, but they dont. Seems like ford cant win. They have gotten the most highly spec'd truck on the market but still people moan. Im almost certain that if we had the biggest engine that there would be people moaning that ford has leaf springs and the dodge has coil overs that ride better than the ford. It's a no win deal for ford.

 

I wonder how many that say power is not that big of deal will buy a F150 with a 4.6 3v? My guess is not many. I mean hey, we are talking about almost 300 hp and what about 320 ft lbs? Isnt that enough?

One other quick thought and I will let this go. One second down the quarter mile does not sound like much right? Its about 10 truck lengths. Thats a lot and thats what you call getting embarrassed. Or about 2 bus lengths give or take of course.

Honestly, I would not give 40 cents for a tundra no matter what is under the hood but a GM truck seems to have a pretty decent overall compromise.

I have never owned anything in my life that was not a Ford or GM product and I can not say one is any better than the other as far as holding up ect... Its the luck of the draw sometimes and they all have issues. Some guy just got a 09 at F150 online and the bed is lower on one side than it is the other so crap happens to all of them.

 

People have to have something to complain about, it's that day and age. Gotta keep up with the Jones's in society anymore.

Had the other makes/models been significantly quicker than the '09 F150 when comparable equipped, maybe there is something to turly complain about. But we're talking 1, maybe 2 measily (sp?) seconds here. I'd enjoy those extra two seconds in the better truck over getting out of the 2nd best truck 2 seconds quicker.

With the way this thread looks, I bet if Ford recycled the Pinto with 500hp or Chevy brought out a 500hp Chevette, everyone would be all over it.