I actually heard an interesting argument that the claimed "increase in efficiency" was a result of the hydrogen combustion acting as a catalyst to burn the original fuel more completely, thus adding power to the system.

But I read a thread on some other site where an engineer disputed this theory too. Basically, I think he was saying that the amount of non-burned fuel in these highly efficient petroleums was SO miniscule that it was impossible for it to overcompensate for the original loss of power resulting from the transfer of energy (gas combustion-heat-electricity-heat-molecular separation-heat-oxydation-heat).

If physics and chemistry are not enough to convince you. Consider this:

Hydrolysis is as old as the science of chemistry itself. I believe the first real scientific experiment that brought us out of the age of alchemy into the age of chemistry was the first contained separation of water into its atomic parts, hydrogen and oxygen. It's literally hundreds of years old technology. Now, if you understand the vigorous, intense, and do-or-die nature of competition in a free market society, then why do you suppose the car manufacturers have never introduced this very simple contraption as a means for improving fuel efficiency without compromising the quality of the vehicle?

Because the evil corporations don't want their customers to save money?


Yeah, riiiiggghhhhtt.

 

Quote: "Now, the one thing I have always wondered is, (and I'm sure the engineers have fiddled with this), why can't you use the excess heat to provide the energy for electrolysis? You know, have the cooling system be an electrolysis generator.

Heat is wasted energy."

Hi, engineers have successfully recovered waste heat off the turbo as usable energy. Do a google search on turbo compound engines. Several very powerful aircraft engines were built this way (Napier and Curtis Wright) but the advent of jet turbine engines made this technology obsolete. It would be cool to apply it to an auto diesel engine though, but I think costly.

 

Hi, engineers have successfully recovered waste heat off the turbo as usable energy. Do a google search on turbo compound engines. Several very powerful aircraft engines were built this way (Napier and Curtis Wright) but the advent of jet turbine engines made this technology obsolete. It would be cool to apply it to an auto diesel engine though, but I think costly.[/quote]



I wonder about that. Seems to me that generating hydrogen from the cooling system could be a hundred dollar option at the dealership.

I say use the cooling system because that is a place where energy is being wasted, but a necessary component of the system for proper operation of the engine.

Again, though, I ask, if its so simple, then why aren't they already doing it. There must be a reason.

 

On the aircraft engines the heat recovery turbines used the exhaust flow out of the turbos. The recovery turbines were hooked to fluid drive couplings which added a few hundred extra horsepower on Curtis Wright R 3350 turbo compound engines. If I remember correctly there were 3 recovery turbines on these 18 cylinder engines.

I don't believe there is enough heat energy in the coolant to generate hydrogen. It really takes a lot of energy to electrolyze water for hydrogen. Where you want to look is at fuel cell technology. In Vancouver some city buses are running on fuel cells. These are the things that provide power in space craft. Look up Ballard fuel cell in google The Ballard Fuel Cell -- General Information

 

Yeah. That's it, most likely (not enough heat).


As far as hydrogen in general goes, I know there are places that it makes sense.

Like in a densely populated city where smog is heavily concentrated.

It doesn't, however, provide us an alternative energy source. Most people do not understand this, and fall for the "hydrogen is just around the corner" hype.

Hydrogen fuel is a misconception.

 

To bring the topic up again...

HHO Fuel For Your Combustion Engine From Water

HHO Cell

1 Hydrogen Generator HHO Cell Water4Gas Complete Kit: eBay Motors (item 330470761639 end time Sep-16-10 15:16:19 PDT)

Seems the hydrogen is not used as a fuel in the gas / deisel engines as it used more for breaking down the larger molecules of fuel to "aid" combustion and make combustion efficency increase.

Only draws 7 amps.

 

Explain the chemical process wherein hydrogen "breaks down" larger molecules of fuel to aid combustion.

 

Cartmanea,
I know this is a couple of years old, but I just read where you called me an idiot. I have always thought from your posts that you were full of yourself, but I was pretty surprised to see the “idiot” remark. You should probably realize that you aren’t the only one who went to college and took Physics I and II, Calculus I, II and III, ODEs, PDEs, Thermo I and II, ……. I think however, that at some point you went EE and some people went ME so you must surely be smarter.

Do I think that adding small electrical loads to your truck is free? No, but I think it is pretty insignificant. The primary load on the alternator is mechanical rotation of the mass and friction in the bearing. If it’s putting out zero current it is still a load on the system. Do you think that carrying 10 extra pounds in your truck is going to affect fuel economy? Of course it will, but can you measure it? No, it’s in the noise.
<o></o>
By the way, you should edit your post and change “effects” to affects. You are using it as a verb.
<o></o>

 

Wow, pretty worked up over a two year old post. Sorry for idiot remark, but let me clarify. If you took all the classes you listed above, then you know the hydrogen cannot add any more energy to the combustion than the hydrogen itself contains. Go up one step further and the hydrogen cannot contain any more energy than was originally pulled from the alternator as electricity. Go up another step, and the electrical energy from the alternator cannot be any higher than that in the fuel used to produce it. Between every one of those steps is efficiency losses.

Also, the majority of the load of an alternator is not in rotational mass and friction. First, rotational mass causes load due to inertia, which is only a "loaner" load. It takes power to get it moving, but you get than back when decelerating. And frictional losses, if the highest load, would burn up the alternator because frictional losses are heat. On a 135A alternator, if you had as much friction as output, that would be almost 2kW in heat. Think about a 1500W space heater.

 

Two years ago or two days ago, I'm going to respond to being called an idiot.

I'm not advocating for the hydrogen fuel cell, because I too think it is BS. If you go back and read my original post, I made no claims that you could get more energy out of the hydrogen than it took to get the hydrogen out of the water. I used to operate and maintain electrolytic oxygen generators for a living so I'm pretty familiar with the process. I just made the point that minor electrical loads are in the noise when calculating fuel efficiency of an engine that's only about 15-20% efficient to start with.

You are correct in your analysis of an alternator under full load (I actually have it at 1620 watts), but on most trucks, the load is probably nowhere near that, under normal cruising conditions.

I'm not wanting to start a pissing contest or anything, I just like to look at things from a real world perspective and don't appreciate being called names. That being said, no hard feelings and this will be my last post on this thread.

 

Conservation of energy and over unity discussion aside, has anyone tested the introduction or Hydrogen, Oxygen, or HHO on these engines to get any data about benefits in MPG, HP, Torque etc.? How do the various gasses compare with something like propane?

An important note is that the HHO gas is not just hydrogen, it is a mixed gas which burns quite differently than many other gas combinations. Some of the videos show it burning through metal much cooler than other gases.

There are also many variations on the HHO generator... Anyone remember the Joe cell?

 

here is the principal rule regarding all things like this:

there is no free lunch.

as was mentioned, their is no "free" electricity coming from either a
generator (obsolete) or alternator.

here is the rule: 1 horsepower equals 746 watts.

it will take more than 746 watts of electricity to crack enough
water to make enough hydrogen to generate one horsepower.

those "green" "free power from the sun" solar cells....
another example... recently, and by that i mean in the last month,
a premier manufacturer of solar cells announced that they have gotten
their manufacturing process so efficient that their cells now can generate
the power needed in the manufacturing of them in.... read this.....

4 years.

up until now, PV cells have never generated the energy needed to manufacture
them. they have always been a net loss. they allowed you the luxury of
power without a grid.

those wonderful electric cars..... well, until energy decisions are made
by engineers, and not politicians, the only source of electricity that makes
sense to power electric cars, is nuclear power.

otherwise, you are just moving the tailpipe if you are burning fossil
fuel to generate electricity.

if you really want to get serious, the best replacement for #2 diesel
is lipid oil, from algae. it'll burn like #2, requires sunlight to manufacture,
and the only thing you need to do to accomodate it is use a C02 purge
when storing it, to keep oxygen away from it. has about the same btu's
as peanut oil.

we aren't there yet. it'll be a few years. want to know when it's viable?
watch my roof. when collectors go up on the southern exposure, and
i start circulating algae and water thru the collectors, and can get a
10-15 gallon a day output of oil, it'll go up in a heartbeat, and my wife
will trade in her honda on something that'll burn #2.

the short version is, there is no free lunch.

as it sits now, with available technology, an area of the arizona desert
100 miles, by 100 miles, set up with fan fold collectors, could make enough
oil to replace all #2 diesel used in this country, and that includes trains,
stationary generators, everything.

so why don't we? ask your politician. it's doable.

 

So you are working on making your own algae lipid generation system?
Sounds interesting you have any links to more info on this?

 

Ok I am not going to read all of this.
A guy I was in class with back a few years ago
showed me this thing. Yes it would work
the answers are the problem to the questions.
Your return will be a -number ti takes more to make
what you are using. You have to store the excess
and hydrogen under pressure that is easy BOMB
Don't drive near me and I will watch for the
mushroom cloud.

Sean
Sean

 

Made the trip to Beloite to meet these guys and check it out: Hydrogen boosts Beloit -- GazetteXtra

But after weighing the costs vs benifits, we did not try it as we do not have staff to babysit ( have tecs check it every day b-4 using) the system every day. And I did not want to risk melting down a 25K cummings motor in a refuse truck if something went bad.

That said I love the concept but if it could provide real world results FOMOCO, GM & CHRY would be on it like Ophra on a canned ham!!!