20 lpm Hydrogen Injection
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New User
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From: Atlanta
20 lpm Hydrogen Injection
I installed a "T" fitting above the PCV valve so I could inject hydrogen gas at all speeds (idle and cruise). When I injected the gas at idle, it showed a 29% increase in fuel efficiency using a scan gauge. This was determined by GPH decrease. I then made a test drive while injecting 20 liters per minute of pure Hydrogen into my engine. The results were disappointing. There was no real increase in Average MPG. I use the scan gauge for this but use the Today's Average MPG. I have to wait for this to reset each day. I have a 2000 6.8L V10.
Question:
Why am I getting a 29% increase at idle then nothing at cruise.
Is it possible that pre-ignition, during air intake, is the cause?
How do I stop or delay this?
Thanks,
Paul
Question:
Why am I getting a 29% increase at idle then nothing at cruise.
Is it possible that pre-ignition, during air intake, is the cause?
How do I stop or delay this?
Thanks,
Paul
Lead Driver
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,757
Likes: 5
From: Corvallis, OR
The whole hydrogen thing is a scam really. Hydrogen has much lower energy density than gasoline. When at idle, there is very little power demand so the hydrogen helps a little. When driving, the power demand is greatly increased so the little bit the hydrogen adds makes little or no difference. Hope you didn't pay much for the instructions or equipment, its all a scam.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,811
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From: Central Ohio
Yeah and the increase at idle was probably just do to the computer running the engine way too lean which is not good really.
Hydrogen will not help a gasser for sure, some diesel folks still claim it can help burn unburnt fuel but I have yet to see any real proof.
Hydrogen will not help a gasser for sure, some diesel folks still claim it can help burn unburnt fuel but I have yet to see any real proof.
Post Fiend
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: Plano TX and Brentwood TN
I have heard of that for propane, but I haven't heard diesel guys claim that about hydrogen, however I do tend to ignore stuff like this during times when fuel shoots thru the roof. Seems like too much of a coincidence to me that they would mention this stuff when fuel is high.
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From: Atlanta
Thanks for your response guys. I know for sure that the on-demand systems do not work. They cannot work due to the counterproductive load caused by the additional amperage from the cell. However, I have unlimited quantities of pure Hydrogen and will see if there's anything to this stuff.
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Long Island USA
In order for it to work, you'd have to inject more oxygen with it.
In a gasser, in order for hydrogen to help with ANY power, you have to supercharge it. There isn't enough O2 (oxygen) in plain air to run hydrogen correctly.
Now, injecting pure O2 AND H at the same time? CABOOM!
In a gasser, in order for hydrogen to help with ANY power, you have to supercharge it. There isn't enough O2 (oxygen) in plain air to run hydrogen correctly.
Now, injecting pure O2 AND H at the same time? CABOOM!
Lead Driver
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: Rhode Island
Your increase at idle was probably because engines are very inefficient idling. The added hydrogen probably helped to clean up some of the combustion inefficiency during idle which let the computer lean the fuel mixture out.
I suspect you might see some gains at wide open throttle with it however.
Maybe you are not injection enough hydrogen for there to be a difference during cruising speeds. If your on the highway turning 1700 RPMs, that means your engine is inhaling about 5780 LPM of air. With the amount of hydrogen you are injecting, that works out to an air/fuel ratio of 289:1. I think that is far to lean to see any kind of meaningful results
I suspect you might see some gains at wide open throttle with it however.
Maybe you are not injection enough hydrogen for there to be a difference during cruising speeds. If your on the highway turning 1700 RPMs, that means your engine is inhaling about 5780 LPM of air. With the amount of hydrogen you are injecting, that works out to an air/fuel ratio of 289:1. I think that is far to lean to see any kind of meaningful results
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FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Long Island USA
In a gasser, he won't, without forced induction. There's no way to get enough O2 in there to burn the H efficiently, and it's only going to throw off the PCM's closed-loop mix. Which is going to make things worse.
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From: Atlanta
Thanks for the additional input, it is much appreciated.
I did make a run with 10 LPM of HHO and the same thing happened, no noticeable change in average mpg. When I ran HHO (at idle) at a flow of 20 LPM, there was a 3.8% less efficency compared to pure hydrogen.
I will make another run with an injection of 20 LPM of HHO (includes Oxygen). I'm worried about the oxygen though, in that, I don't want the 02 Sensors to see it and in-turn richen the mixture.
How much Hydrogen or HHO gas do I need to see a difference on my Scan Gauge?
I want to get the math for use on a smaller engine. My thoughts are that this stuff is possible. It may, however, not be feasible but I'm going to find out.
I did make a run with 10 LPM of HHO and the same thing happened, no noticeable change in average mpg. When I ran HHO (at idle) at a flow of 20 LPM, there was a 3.8% less efficency compared to pure hydrogen.
I will make another run with an injection of 20 LPM of HHO (includes Oxygen). I'm worried about the oxygen though, in that, I don't want the 02 Sensors to see it and in-turn richen the mixture.
How much Hydrogen or HHO gas do I need to see a difference on my Scan Gauge?
I want to get the math for use on a smaller engine. My thoughts are that this stuff is possible. It may, however, not be feasible but I'm going to find out.
Lead Driver
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,868
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From: Rhode Island
I would try doubling or tripling the hydrogen flow if possible during cruise. The computer O2 sensor might see a decrease in oxygen, and lean out the fuel mixture letting the hydrogen do its thing.
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From: Atlanta
Thanks Lead Head, I love encouragement. I want to go as high as 100 LPM. I should have mentioned this earlier but didn't think it mattered really. I'm using a flow meter that is calibrated for air. My volume testing shows that it is actually a rate of 40 LPM, pure Hydrogen. So, my test run was with 40 LPM 100% Hydrogen. At this flow rate, do you think I'm encountering pre-ignition?
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From: Atlanta
Lead Head,
By pre-ignition I'm talking about ignition during the intake stroke. I'm thinking that maybe the carbon deposits may act like hot coals and the platinum spark plugs may be igniting the hydrogen during the intake stroke. This would explain why I get a 29% increase in efficiency at idle (during free wheel). Hydrogen is highly flammable, it can be ignited by heat, static discharge or hot plugs. What do you think about injecting cold vapor or steam to prevent ignition during the intake stoke? And what do you think about changing the plugs from platinum to el cheap o?
By pre-ignition I'm talking about ignition during the intake stroke. I'm thinking that maybe the carbon deposits may act like hot coals and the platinum spark plugs may be igniting the hydrogen during the intake stroke. This would explain why I get a 29% increase in efficiency at idle (during free wheel). Hydrogen is highly flammable, it can be ignited by heat, static discharge or hot plugs. What do you think about injecting cold vapor or steam to prevent ignition during the intake stoke? And what do you think about changing the plugs from platinum to el cheap o?
Posting Guru
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: Las Vega$
now NOS on the other hand, is something that us diesel guys have an advantage over you gassers with because we DON'T have to achieve any stoichiometric ratios with our fuel, so there is NO danger of running lean when we inject nitrous... Nitrous is an OXIDIZER, unlike hydrogen, propane, diesel, or gasoline, which are all FUEL.
if you were to add NOS to a gas motor w/out adding an additional amount of fuel to burn , you then run the risk of burning dangerously lean.
adding hydrogen (FUEL) to an already rich mixture will not do anything to help burn unburnt fuel, since you are adding even more fuel. now you would just have even more unburnt fuel.
anytime you see black smoke coming from a diesel, you are seeing excess fuel that has not been completely burned. this is a situation where the gains from NOS can be seen because it will allow for all of this fuel to be burned and take advantage of the extra power instead of just releasing it to the atmosphere