chem trails
Cargo Master
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,495
Likes: 7
From: Not as far west as I want
Not sure what the deal is, but the nicely planned grid I witnessed today here seems more than normal air traffic, I understand VOR navigation and Radial and Reciprocals and got a fair handle on Transition waypoints and Intersecting Radials \ fix enroute for Low and HI airways for this whole area pretty good and today seemed odd ...
I'm curious to know why two aircraft flying in around the same FL flight levels can have considerable difference in vapor trails 1 being only a few miles behind the aircraft and another with a trail clean across the sky for as far as the eye can see that takes a longtime to dissipate ..... perhaps different fuels and different ALT but there isn't all that much separation on FL eastbound or west bound or same direction not sure what the reason for this is but am curious
I'm curious to know why two aircraft flying in around the same FL flight levels can have considerable difference in vapor trails 1 being only a few miles behind the aircraft and another with a trail clean across the sky for as far as the eye can see that takes a longtime to dissipate ..... perhaps different fuels and different ALT but there isn't all that much separation on FL eastbound or west bound or same direction not sure what the reason for this is but am curious
Ever go outside of a really cold day? Temperature well below freezing. What happens when you exhale? Or the tailpipe of car on the same cold cold day.
Think about it at 30,000 the air temperature is -50 degree F... The exhaust of the engines is something like 1000 + degrees. Make sense? I think there was a program on Nat GEO channel about this that blows holes, no craters in this whole "theory" of chem trails.
As far as the just trails lingering, winds tend to be one of the biggest factors in how long they stay intact.
If you want I can still send you some tinfoil.
Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,221
Likes: 6
From: Cow Town, CA
Like this?
Read this web page. You will have to scroll down about 1/3 of the way to where it says "Look! Up in the sky!"
Eject! Eject! Eject!: SEEING THE UNSEEN, Part 2
Read this web page. You will have to scroll down about 1/3 of the way to where it says "Look! Up in the sky!"
Eject! Eject! Eject!: SEEING THE UNSEEN, Part 2
No one noticed this on Tuesday morning? Hey Jim, what do you suppose that huge bundle of plastic explosives is doing there where the water cooler used to be?
from his 9-11 rant....
Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,004
Likes: 1
From: North of Boston MA
Condensation trails are nothing more than artificial clouds caused by the addition of moisture into a very cold atmosphere. Persistant contrails hang around for a while if there is high humidity and low winds at that flight level.
Contrails are a relatively new phenomena since high altitude aviation hasn't been around all that long.
Using weather balloon data and a plot called a Skew-T/Log P chart, contrails can be predicted fairly accurately. Knowing at what altitide your attack planes create contrails is pretty helpful for sneaking up on an enemy on the ground without radar. Even with radar, that same weather balloon data can help you find altitudes at which radar won't be able to see you.....
There is some basis to the earlier post about temperature changes caused by contrails. Hasn't been proven or disproven.....
Contrails are a relatively new phenomena since high altitude aviation hasn't been around all that long.
Using weather balloon data and a plot called a Skew-T/Log P chart, contrails can be predicted fairly accurately. Knowing at what altitide your attack planes create contrails is pretty helpful for sneaking up on an enemy on the ground without radar. Even with radar, that same weather balloon data can help you find altitudes at which radar won't be able to see you.....
It had been hypothesized that contrails may affect the weather, reducing solar heating during the day and radiation of heat during the night by increasing the albedo. The suspension of air travel for three days in the United States after September 11, 2001 provided an opportunity to test this hypothesis. Measurements did show that without contrails the local diurnal temperature range (difference of day and night temperatures) was about 1 degree Celsius higher than immediately before;<SUP class=reference id=wp-_ref-3>[4]</SUP> however, it has also been suggested that this was due to unusually clear weather during the period.<SUP class=reference id=wp-_ref-4>[5]</SUP>
Thread Starter
|
Posting Guru
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,226
Likes: 0
Part of that is the fact that the crossing aircraft look to be at the same FL however there might be a 1,000 or more feet difference in elevation.
Ever go outside of a really cold day? Temperature well below freezing. What happens when you exhale? Or the tailpipe of car on the same cold cold day.
Think about it at 30,000 the air temperature is -50 degree F... The exhaust of the engines is something like 1000 + degrees. Make sense? I think there was a program on Nat GEO channel about this that blows holes, no craters in this whole "theory" of chem trails.
As far as the just trails lingering, winds tend to be one of the biggest factors in how long they stay intact.
If you want I can still send you some tinfoil.
Ever go outside of a really cold day? Temperature well below freezing. What happens when you exhale? Or the tailpipe of car on the same cold cold day.
Think about it at 30,000 the air temperature is -50 degree F... The exhaust of the engines is something like 1000 + degrees. Make sense? I think there was a program on Nat GEO channel about this that blows holes, no craters in this whole "theory" of chem trails.
As far as the just trails lingering, winds tend to be one of the biggest factors in how long they stay intact.
If you want I can still send you some tinfoil.
Post Fiend
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,402
Likes: 38
From: Bonita Springs FL
If you don't understand the effects of various atmospheric conditions on formation of contrails from different types of jet engines (and who can claim they do, really) why do you assume that what's happening is some nutty conspiracy? Isn't it possible that atmospheric conditions today are simply not favorable for large, lingering contrails to form or maybe be visible?
To be honest, we rarely see them here in California. In fact, I just looked outside and the sky is absolutely clear. No clouds at all, no contrails. I looked but didn't see any air traffic at all, but being 100 miles east of Oakland, San Jose, and San Francisco internal airports, I'm sure there's no air traffic today.
I'm sorry, but I need something more than some whacked-out theory to believe in something even half-heartedly. Show me some evidence, some proof, and I'll jump onboard. This is nothing more than a hypothesis, really.
To be honest, we rarely see them here in California. In fact, I just looked outside and the sky is absolutely clear. No clouds at all, no contrails. I looked but didn't see any air traffic at all, but being 100 miles east of Oakland, San Jose, and San Francisco internal airports, I'm sure there's no air traffic today.
I'm sorry, but I need something more than some whacked-out theory to believe in something even half-heartedly. Show me some evidence, some proof, and I'll jump onboard. This is nothing more than a hypothesis, really.
Senior User
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 387
Likes: 0
From: Cambridge, Ontario
Well perhaps I need a better Tin Foil hat.... hey I'm not sold On the idea of upper atmospheric weather manipulation or population control theory either , Nor am I a meteorologist or an ATP pilot, PPL is in the near future, but I do find this odd none the less and really have never heard a satisfactory explanation on the issue, not that i ever really put any effort into it or set a goal as to prove or disprove any one theory, perhaps I missed the explanation while I was building my tin foil hats....
I just find it odd, again that could be from my ignorance on the matter too ..
So I'll step out of this one, and let those who know what causes this phenomenon explain how it works and perhaps learn something today !
I just find it odd, again that could be from my ignorance on the matter too ..
So I'll step out of this one, and let those who know what causes this phenomenon explain how it works and perhaps learn something today !
Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,004
Likes: 1
From: North of Boston MA
Now if you pass a jet through a parcel of cold, dry air at flight level then the contrails may disappear immediately. If the air is already moist then the contrails can persist.
Exhaust vapor from a car evaporates quickly since the air at lower levels, even when the temp is below freezing, usually has room for more moisture.
Different times of year, winds aloft, moisture levels and temperature all play a role....one thing for sure - there is no conspiracy here.
FTE Stories
Ford Trucks for Ford Truck Enthusiasts
AEV FXL Super Duty - the Super Duty Raptor Ford Doesn't Make
Brett Foote
Lobo Vs Lobo: Proof the F-150 Lobo Should Be Even Lower!
Michael S. Palmer
Ford's 2001 Explorer Sportsman Concept Looks For a New Home
Verdad Gallardo
10 Best Ford Truck Engines We Miss the Most!
Joe Kucinski
2026 Shelby F-150 Off-Road: Better Than a Raptor R?
Brett Foote
2027 Super Duty Carhartt Package First Look: 12 Things You NEED to Know!
Michael S. Palmer
10 Most Surprising 2026 Ford Truck Features!
Joe Kucinski
Top 10 Ford Trucks Coming to Mecum Indy 2026
Brett Foote
5 Best / 5 Worst Ford Truck Wheels of All Time
Joe Kucinski
Thread Starter
|
Posting Guru
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,226
Likes: 0
The cold air would certainly cool the hot exhaust rapidly causing any water vapor in the exhaust to immediately condense into water and then immediately into ice crystals. Colder air can hold much less water than warm air so it only takes a slight amount of water added to the air to saturate it. Once saturated, any excess water has to condense. Think about what happens at night when the temperature drops - the quantity of water in the air stays the same but the relative humidity increases until the air reaches the dew point or 100% relative humidity - forming dew.
Now if you pass a jet through a parcel of cold, dry air at flight level then the contrails may disappear immediately. If the air is already moist then the contrails can persist.
Exhaust vapor from a car evaporates quickly since the air at lower levels, even when the temp is below freezing, usually has room for more moisture.
Different times of year, winds aloft, moisture levels and temperature all play a role....one thing for sure - there is no conspiracy here.
Now if you pass a jet through a parcel of cold, dry air at flight level then the contrails may disappear immediately. If the air is already moist then the contrails can persist.
Exhaust vapor from a car evaporates quickly since the air at lower levels, even when the temp is below freezing, usually has room for more moisture.
Different times of year, winds aloft, moisture levels and temperature all play a role....one thing for sure - there is no conspiracy here.
Postmaster
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,004
Likes: 1
From: North of Boston MA
Tell you what, tell me where you live and I will search some of my favorite weather sites and find a recent weather balloon report in your area and see what it says - I'm theorizing that it tells me there is a large difference between the air temp and the dew point temp (dry air) at FL 300-400 (30,000-40,000'). Could also be high winds at those levels.
Less likely but possible is that there is something going on in your area that would keep commercial flights from your area. Do you live near a missle test range or anything?
Elder User
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 592
Likes: 1
From: Tooele, UT
We had some planes flyin in a pattern here in utah awhile back it was at night so I couldnt see if there was a haze but the news said they were sprayin for west nile virus. This could be what theyre doin there. Just my take on it.
Thread Starter
|
Posting Guru
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,226
Likes: 0
I'm in kelowna B.C. west nile sounds like a possibility, and we also have a hugh pine beetle problem aswell, I haven't heard their spraying for that, but I'll look into it.bf250 your telling me theres no bigfoot, some natives produce some pretty convincing blurry photo's just the other day of what they believe to be bigfoot, so there!
Government Teat-sucker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,748
Likes: 1
From: Virginia Beach
As far as contrails go, enjoy:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...Heymsfield.pdf