Things have changed quite a bit since the 50s(and I don't think you'll see another time when America was innocent and carefree since then) and depending on much of a youngster you were determines how much you were actually cognizant of what was going on. I remember helping my grandfather with a couple of sections of cotton that he farmed for his sister, but I didn't know what was going on and I was a youngster then(I think it was just a ploy to get cheap labor, but live and learn).

 

We were all cheap labor back than... and it was easier to complain bout the weather. The meat "steak" ? was tougher to chew than it is now! If the price of fuel wasn't as high as it is now there would not be any room on the road for the few of us that can still afford it. Bushy and crowd are printing to much paper and if we aren't careful what we got won't buy much of anything... except maybe a tank we can't aford to buy fuel for.

 

I think the original post was timely in that it connected the rising fuel costs to not only pain at the pump and financial hardship but also job losses and business closures. Our economy is unraveling. The technology is not there yet to switch over to another fuel source and you can't force it. Also we are so far in debt how could we possibly fund a transition? Heck CA has fewer natural gas refueling sites for cars now than they did 10 years ago. There is no money for things that lose money.

We need to do something fast about oil. Oil works, we use it, the system is in place and people depend on it and will do so for decades to come. We can transistion to hydrogen but it will take a long time. Until then you need affordable oil or like JMCDER53 points out, our economy will continue to suffer greatly.

I saw this link over at TheDieselStop, check it out. It's a great opportunity to finally get a good energy Bill passed and lower gas prices:

http://www.AmericansForJobsAndEnergy.org/

When I get time I'll start a new thread for this.

 

Yes, oil works, it works all to well, however it will never be cheap again. This is it, it won't go down even if we started drilling for more, it won't be down what it was a year ago, let alone what it was when I started driving. Trying to stick with the status quo(as far as using oil as a primary source of energy) is going to do more damage in the long run if we don't start transitioning now. Now I'm not saying we can't still use oil as an energy source, I'm saying we should tone down how much of an energy source we use it as.

It used to be when America sneezed and prices would change, that isn't the case now. We have more demand out there then just us, so even if we drill for more, that will easily be eating up by the demand for oil overseas(those that are still able to gobble up oil despite the 134 a barrel price tag, imagine how much more they can afford if more oil was on the market while we are dealing with a bad economy). This isn't as simple as drilling for more oil, those that think it is will be in for a big disappointment in the long run.

 

"This isn't as simple as drilling for more oil, those that think it is will be in for a big disappointment in the long run."

You are 100% right it isn't that simple. I am just saying drilling for domestic oil has to be part of our long term plan to keep the economy from grinding to a halt. The S.2958 energy plan also has provisions for research funding into better storage battery technology for electric cars, biomass ethanol, etc.

Personally I wish we would build more Nuke plants, which would take pressure off of natural gas prices.

I also wish I could go buy a hydrogen car and fill it up around the corner. But letting gas go higher and higher thinking that prices are going to force someone, some company or whatever to sink trillions into an unproven technology will only result in more job losses, more business closures, more airlines folding, etc....

 

I love the hydrogen car is going to save us argument. Tex you say drilling isn't going to save us, and I have heard that argument form you before along with the "well it's going to be 10yrs before we see any of it so why bother" well guess what if we had disregarded that argument the first time it was proposed (gee umm 12 yrs ago) and went ahead and drilled we WOULD be benefiting from it but NO instead we went along with it and see where we are now. To say it won't help is as empty as most peoples gas tank and I always want to look into the persons back ground that uses it to see how they benefit from higher oil prices (so far haven't found one single person using that argument that either benefited from high oil prices, or was attached to some environmental group with a twisted version of reality and a hatred for the United States and the human race in general, well ok the other group is also a crossover group that is just absolutely clueless and uninformed but I dont' for a minute think Tex belongs to that group). The fact is it WILL help, reason is the high prices are not brought on by the oil companies, or the gas stations, or even the saudi's not even the president and congress (with the exception of every time they refuse to drill for oil they cause the group that IS responsible to panic and raise the price). The people responsible for the high oil prices are the commodities brokers/traders/investors. Every time this group precieves something that MAY cause a problem with the supply the bid the price up, but if they see something that in the near future will dramatically increase the supply they stop bidding so much. and Drilling WILL increase the world supply so even years before it hits the market you now have it sitting there coming online in the future so your not suddenly just going to not have it. The argument that it's going to take 10yrs before we see it, is a lazy man talking (and if you use that argument then yes I am referring to YOU) it's always going to take 10yrs to bring it online, had it been done like it should have it now would be online but since it wasn't it will be in 10 yrs unless we put it off until the total collapse of western civilization the the starving and freezing of a major portion of the population to save some polar bears (that ARE NOT ENDANGERED ) and then it will take ANOTHER 10yrs. That is undoubtely the stupidest lamest reason I have ever heard in my life, how do you think it would have gone over if as a kid (or even now ffor that matter) if you said "well why should i mow the lawn, it's going to take all day to get it done and in a week it will be right back were we started at now" yep but it still needs done the question is simple do it now while we have the time to get it done before a total collapse of civilization or do it when we are trying to rebuild what is left over after the wars are fought over what is already available (and yes I firmly believe that will be the outcome, and the US will lose that fight because we don't have enough production to fuel our military and protect ourselves if it does come about because of those that think we shouldn't bother)
Now back to the hydrogen cars, dream on, yes the technology exists, and yes even though it's extremely cost prohibitive now it can and will eventually come down but it will NEVER EVER replace or even significantly reduce our usage of fossil fuels, and is truly a waste of money in all aspect, it's a pipe dream, shell game, con job ( and those "researching" it know it and play it for all it;s worth because people buy into it) first hydrogen cars will actually require MORE oil and/or NG then the cars they replace (where do you actually think hydrogen comes from, hint not water because it takes almost 250% MORE energy to get it out of water then it produces) it comes from natural gas, the very stuff the environmentalist don't want us to go get along with the oil. And for the real scam of hydrogen fuel cells that is the final nail in the coffin (and when i found out about i ended any and all interest i had in it, even though at one time I too thought it was a great idea) Virtually ALL fuel cell setups use a large quantity of platinum for the mechanism that causes the reaction to take place. and I do mean a fairly large amount even though current types have reduced it, the dirty little secret they don't want you to know is that ALL of the worlds known supplies of already mined and known minable platinum would be required to replace less then 20% of the cars JUST IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, let alone the rest of the country. And if you think oil drilling is bad you will be in love with the strip mines used to get that platinum for your "environmentally friendly hydrogen car"
do a little research almost all of the "environmentally friendly" technologies actually do massively more damage then they prevent.

 

Actually, the only 10 yr argument that I used was with reference to solar power technology and not in reference to oil. I never once also suggested that hydrogen cars would save us.




Will drilling help, sure it would help, but I cannot logical think that it would be a long term solution. Take it for what it's worth, I don't belong to any of the aforementioned groups, those prices affect my horse feed, fertilizer(when I use it), tractors etc. I believe in source diversity more then anything else. Am I saying that oil should be totally replaced, no I am not, but I do believe that there should be other things in the mix, because there isn't that is why we are hurt so much at the pump and elsewhere. Also, the backgrounds of people that say one thing are another is irrelevant as long as they bring facts into their argument and not just going by what they say. Now if they say high oil prices are because of X and that is it, then yeah I would look into their background about that, but not if they say oil prices are X because of A, B, and C then you have to argue against A, B, and C before you can actualy logically attack their background.


That is absolutely true, the only thing that you don't mention is that commodity traders after awhile need to see some evidence of that "new" supply otherwise, they'll suspect it doesn't exist. One of the problems right now with Berneke is that he is talking tough but investors are starting to question it and that is showing with their last few rounds of trading.


I never once brough into the argument saving the environment or saving polar bears or anything like that, your getting that from somewhere else, I sure don't recall any of that in this thread(atleast not from me). Once again energy diversity.

Yes, that more then likely will be the outcome if something isn't done now, however like I said if we had energy diversity then when something like this happens and a source lags behind in supply then hopefully the other inputs that you have can pick up the slack.



That is true especially with the plug in electric ones as well until something like solar panels comes in and then a plug in will actually be environmentally viable(once again the 10 yr. argument is about solar panels not about seeing new oil supplies).

In all honesty, something like this LS9, Inc. > Home is what I'm hoping for, although it does have issues about it, but I think it would be a viable alternative and not be a stretch to get it with existing infrastructe, along with biofuel(that is a whole different argument there) and oil(yes I said oil as well).

 

VERY well said. That's what I want to say when people tell me drilling won't help, but I'm not eloquent enough (i do own a thesaurus)

I think that organization's website has a comment page, you should put that whole explanation up there. You take a complex issue and make it simple to understand the ramifications of not drilling.

 

we need to get a 2 man aguer, head to alaska and start drilling and refining what we have... we need the resource, we have the resource, so use it....in the mean time we need to come up with solar,electric,hydrogen, or whatever it takes to run a vechile of some sort... if it gets to the point were as fast as we can go is 50mph, so be it.....

 

Quitr true ... I see no real need to go faster than maybe 60 anyway ... Except to show off ... Save the speeding for NASCAR ... I like mud pits and boggin' ...

 

Tex not all of that was directed at you, although I can see where you thought I was, I just started it and did add one part in there directly at you because you have been the most forward on that issue of late. A lot of what I was saying was directed at all the people that make similar arguments about not drilling, I just didn't differentiate the sections well. So to you I apologize for making it look like I was just hammering at you with that book.

I don't disagree with everything you say, but I vehemently disagree with any and all arguments that are based on and promoting not using our own natural resources for whatever the reason, be it time, short term outlook or environmental such as pollution, the supposed global warming or some precieved endangered animal.

I was working in the timber industry when the spotted owl shut it down and I can tell you that was a two pronged LIE, first the owl was not endangered (there is no evidence that the numbers had declined in over a century) and second lie was that they had to be in old growth timber to nest, it was a fact and it was even known that over half of the spotted owl nests were actually in replanted timber from around the turn of the century but the environmental zealots that were pushing it didn't even know enough to not stand on a stump while declaring an area to be some of the last old growth timber in north America and no I am not kidding. Funny thing some of the loudest most vocal protesters at he time were screaming about a logger cutting down a tree that had an owl next in it. Well it did have one problem was 2 fold first the tree wasn't old growth and in fact was only about 60yrs old so there goes the old growth theory, and second it wasn't actually even a spotted owl. The absolute best one was when about a year after they managed to basically decimate the US timber industry as we knew it they found a spotted owl nest in the Kmart sign in Roseburg Or. hmmm guess Kmart has been around so long it's now considered old growth. FAct is that it had zero to do with the owl and everything to do with stopping big business and trying to take away lands both private and public (was the first use of ESA to take away a private owners right to use his/her own land as they see fit). The polar bears are not one thing to do with the actual bears, it's just those that would like to see this country legislated back into the middle ages figured out things like that work, and if you think the polar bear issue is just about Anwar guess again they have already filed a lawsuit against GWB and the current administration because they haven't done anything to stop CO2 emissions and slowing down global warming which is endangering a threatened species, and it's rumored that they are trying to file a lawsuit to stop ALL sources of greenhouse gasses including all coal and NG powerplants and all internal combustion engines and as a displaced timber worker I can honestly tell you they ARE serious and they will eventually succeed if they are not stopped.

So yes I do take it serious on all levels. We HAVE to start using our own resources I don't care if it won't drop the price of oil I do know what it will do it will stop sending nearly as much US dollars to countries that hate us and it will leave us in a position of we really don't care if the entire middle east explodes and those two reasons alone are more then enough to basically veto any arguments against drilling of any kind.

 

That's alright, even though I am passionate about this topic(as I'm sure most are aware to their disgust), this is actually how things are hammered out and ideas can be better formulated to prevent really mucking things up.

I totally agree with you on the environmental issues, that isn't why I'm saying go ra ra for biofuel. It is more for energy diversity then anything else, if it happens to help the environment then wonderful, but unless it in some way is just exponentially worse, we should use our other natural resources for fuel as well. The one thing that keeps me weary about drilling to actually make things better is that even if we do drill(which we will, I think the overwhelming majority would be infavor of it over the greenies) it will still be a globally traded commodity and therefore, it might actually go to other places and not here, so we might not even see a lick of that new oil that we are drilling for. Now will that be true of biofuel or what is used for biofuel production(mainly about row crops), yes that will, however, you have two sources being traded for fuel instead of one, so hopefully that will drag the price down. Now should we drill for oil, continue using oil and all that, I believe that it will continue to be an input for energy and it actually should be, but not at this level that it is at, it isn't good, no matter how you look at it, but we do need to have more at this time in order to help get time to bring the other technologies to fruitition on a national scale.


I don't disagree with you there, that's why I didn't leave the entire section of the post on there, but wanted to address it so you knew where I stood on that issue and that I wasn't just conveniently doing away with it in my post.

I agree with you there, but I just believe that we should be adding other things into the mix (which are also our natural resources), the biggest and easiest would be biofuel. I do believe LS9, solar power, and even hydro and wind power eventually be adding to the mix despite their being virgin technologies. There more we have in the mix means if something happens to any one source(or maybe even more then one source at the same time depending on our level of technology in those areas), we have other inputs to pick up the slack.

 

This really pisses me off with the tree hugger and bunny humper. Especially with the idea of drilling in the gulf or off the coast.

they say that the whale's and dolphins are endangered. how the hell do they know? The ocean is HUGE!! I saw an interview with the some researchers that said "it's difficult to determine how many whale's are in existence since they spend 90% of their time under water". then how the hell do they know they are almost extinct? that put an end to whale hunting years ago- they were a good source of heating oil.

A few were spotted in the Gulf of Corcovado and now the Blue Whale Center, the World Wildlife Fund and others are lobbying the government of Chile to declare the Gulf of Corcovado- all 10 million acres of it!- a Marine Protected Area. that would put all the fishing businesses there out!

 

I feel like I just got a deal

$4.51/gallon

 

"But thats enough bitching I couldn't expect you older people who have been out of school long enough to either moved up in pay enough or saved enough money to be able to aford to be raped at the pumps and like it to understand."

When I was young I drove cheap beaters and I still drive cheap beaters and so shall it ever be. The large dollars this saves over decades can be used elsewhere...like cheap houses....to fix up...and pay off...

BTW I was young in....the FIRST gas crisis. 500 Suzuki beater, no problem.
That there would be more fuel crises was obvious and had been obvious ever since.

Some people are careful never to buy expensive vehicles or houses or anything else, so they live with a monetary CUSHION for much of their lives. I only went in debt for one vehicle in my life, and that was well after I had solid finances. I don't get raped at the pumps or anywhere else because I very carefully live below what I can afford. Machines are expendable, and cheap beaters do the job without the enslavement of debt. Cheap beaters allow the young to have multiple vehicles and park gas hogs for use only when needed. There will always be periodic economic disasters (anyone born after the Great Depression should be aware of that) so spend live carefully covering yourself against the inevitable bad times and never get potentially overextended.

When this economic mess ends, remember to be ready for the next one, and that there WILL be a "next one."