Towing/Performance Engine?
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From: Van Isl, BC, Canada
Towing/Performance Engine?
How do the two go together? Say I'm building a performance engine off of the 429/460 platform in a '77 F250, say, 500-600 hp/lb-ft torque range, what are the pro's and con's of doing this? Obviously the first thing, I would be building the entire drivetrain tougher. Probably a beefed up Dana 70 in the rear for one. I don't know much about towing, but I would like to build an all-around tow/work/play truck ideally. I'm also wanting to run 35" rubber on it. Thanks for any input.
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I rebuilt a 1981 F250 and changed it from a 400M (same block as a 351M) to a 460. First find a complete motor with all the brackets you will need because nothing interchanges. The motor will bolt up to the bell housing and converter but I had to change the motor mount frame brackets.
I had the motor bored out 30 over and a cleanup cut taken off the heads when they where rebuilt. I installed a low rpm RV cam with a Elelbrook Performer manifold with a Elelbrook 650 4B carb. The C6 tranny was also rebuilt and beefed up with a RV stall converter. I used the standard exhaust manifolds with a custom exhaust with duals going back to a single Turbo muffler and a single 3.5" tailpipe. I went with a mellow exhaust because a load one gets old when towing.
It was a fun project and I towed with it for years.
Denny
I had the motor bored out 30 over and a cleanup cut taken off the heads when they where rebuilt. I installed a low rpm RV cam with a Elelbrook Performer manifold with a Elelbrook 650 4B carb. The C6 tranny was also rebuilt and beefed up with a RV stall converter. I used the standard exhaust manifolds with a custom exhaust with duals going back to a single Turbo muffler and a single 3.5" tailpipe. I went with a mellow exhaust because a load one gets old when towing.
It was a fun project and I towed with it for years.
Denny
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600 hp doesnt neccesarily mean high rpm.Stroker kits are getting cheaper and more common all the time.A 650 carb and exhaust manifolds arent great choices either IMO.My 77 has manifolds on it right now because i couldnt find headers for it when i finished the rebuild.I really think they are hurting performance.A 7000 lb trailer isnt that much to handle.A nice .030/,040 over 460 with decent parts,rv cam,headers,750 carb minimum,edelbrock performer or stock iron intake,recurved Duraspark dizzy etc. will do nicely.I dont really think a beefed Dana 70 is necessary either for highway trailer pulling.
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you are going to need more than 650 for the carb. more like 750-850. 400hp would be a more realistic goal. the best thing is to run good heads. then you can really tone down the cam to get the power that you want. the cam will make the biggest diff when it comes to what rpm you will have the power. you can run a stroker kit but with that comes alot of cost, and reduced reliablity. a stroker kit does not mean more low end torque. i don't know big block all that well but for a 302 a 331 will make less low end torque than a 302 will, but a 347 will have more low end torque but less in the upper rpm's. there is a lot of math when you get into strokers. and they never last as long as the stock setup. 400hp from a 460 would be fairly cheap, and last a long time, pull just about anything and make that truck run very good unloaded. the best thing is to get a budget that you are willing to spend then go from there.
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Elmo i dont buy your reasoning that a smaller motor will make more low end torque.What strokers do on average is make the same or more power at a reduced rpm,but youve got to take into account all engine builds are different.I dont think you can say X cubic inches will make more torque than Y cubic inches.To many variables.I dont know much about small blocks anymore aint messed with one for 15 years.Big block Fords for towing...ive built several of them.
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like i said i don't know big blocks but i do know the small blocks. when you change the stroke you change the rod ratio and that has a impact on power and where the power is made. on a big block it may not be a huge diff. the qoute "no replacement for displacement" is not always true. the 5.9 cummins is a straight 6 and it makes more low end torque than a 7.3 V8. staight 6 makes more low end torque than the v8's do. that is why semis still use staight 6. there is more to an engine than how big it is. the size does make a differance but if you dig deep there is more to it.
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Well there ya go highboy.You need to not be worried about a 460.You need to find you an old 200 ci straight 6.Its a really small 6 cyl so it should make like what 900 ft lb at 2000 rpm?Elmo ive heard this 6 cyl stuff all my life,its a load of crap.We aint talkin diesel engines here,i never heard highboy ask anything about a diesel.Im glad you cleared up the fact that "there is more to it than just how big it is".I think that is what i was saying in my x vs y comment.
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so every semi designer in the world is not as smart as you. i did not realize that i was talking with the smartest man alive, my bad. you may think it is a load of crap but there are a lot people that don't and if you do any research on the mater you will find that you are wrong. to each his own i guess.
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Well since there is alot of people that think that way i guess i do to.You are way off the reservation now.Once again im not talking about diesel engines here.Yes the 300 6 cyl makes decent low end torque,but not on a big v8 level.I dont need to do the research.Ill base it on the 5 300 I6 that i have owned,and the 15+ big block Fords that i have owned,built,drove,raced and towed with.Anytime anyone wants to hook their 300 on to my camper id be more than happy to prove my point.Once again we ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT DIESEL ENGINES IN SEMIS.
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no, but we are talking about things that affect power other than displacement. the cummins vs powerstroke is the best example. there is more to an engine than just how big it is. rod ratio, and cylinder configuration is a couple of things that i am talking about that do affect the power and where the power is made. that is my point. strokers are not the answer to everything, but they do offer more power. like i said before i am not familer with the big block strokers but with small blocks the 347 stroker has oil ring problems because the pistion pin is behind it. they do not last as long as a 302 will because of this. they also have a rod ratio that makes it so they make good low end power but do not rev out as well.
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From: Van Isl, BC, Canada
Well seems my posts been startin' arguments lol. Guys, I like debates but please cut down on the insults, Thanks.
What I had in mind was starting out with a 429 CJ, strokin' it to 528, or thereabouts. I guess what I want is something tht won't have any trouble towing 10 000 lb, but don't mind revvin' higher. I wanna be able to have lots of fun in the mud, and some on the street. But I ain't plannin' on drivin' it like I stole it, I respect the law. I wanna mate it to a NP235, NP205, Dana 60, to 35" rubber on 15" or 16" wheels. I am hoping to do all this, except without the 35" rubber or buying wheels, for around $10k. I wanna have it ready for my road trip by May, '09. This includes buying the truck. I don't need it on the road 'til April. My budget is flexible though. I am lookin' at having $20k or close to it for the truck and trailer. I plan to put at least $5k down on a new trailer. What ya think?
What I had in mind was starting out with a 429 CJ, strokin' it to 528, or thereabouts. I guess what I want is something tht won't have any trouble towing 10 000 lb, but don't mind revvin' higher. I wanna be able to have lots of fun in the mud, and some on the street. But I ain't plannin' on drivin' it like I stole it, I respect the law. I wanna mate it to a NP235, NP205, Dana 60, to 35" rubber on 15" or 16" wheels. I am hoping to do all this, except without the 35" rubber or buying wheels, for around $10k. I wanna have it ready for my road trip by May, '09. This includes buying the truck. I don't need it on the road 'til April. My budget is flexible though. I am lookin' at having $20k or close to it for the truck and trailer. I plan to put at least $5k down on a new trailer. What ya think?
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Elmo i understand what you are saying.I guess you are not getting my point on more displacement.On average IT WILL make the same or more power at a lower rpm,in a 385 series Ford.Doesnt seem like most of the big fords have the rod ratio and ring problems of the small blocks.Some will even tell you a BBF stroker is more reliable than a stock stroke,because you dont have to spin it to the moon.Dont want to argue with you about it anymore ok.Im new here and just tryin to help a guy out.
Highboy-You say stroke a 429 CJ,do you already have a 429 CJ?Thats an awful expensive place to start.I dont think CJ heads, DO0e-r are your best choice for a towing motor.Just get yourself a good 460 and some Dove heads or even D3 heads.Have you ever been to 460Ford.com?
Highboy-You say stroke a 429 CJ,do you already have a 429 CJ?Thats an awful expensive place to start.I dont think CJ heads, DO0e-r are your best choice for a towing motor.Just get yourself a good 460 and some Dove heads or even D3 heads.Have you ever been to 460Ford.com?
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From: Van Isl, BC, Canada
I've come across a CJ block or two on ebay pretty cheap, I was just interested in the CJ block for a starting point. I would go with a 460 just as well though. I have been to 460Ford.com a bit, haven't signed up there though, guess it'd be a good idea.