Notices

emmision law

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Nov 28, 2007 | 11:36 AM
  #16  
fmc400's Avatar
fmc400
MSEE
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,386
Likes: 35
From: Austin, TX
Club FTE Gold Member
I was under the impression that Ford started using PCV valves in 1968. I agree that they aren't really a smog item but for some reason my Chilton's includes it in the emissions section in one of my books...strange.
 
Reply
Old Nov 28, 2007 | 02:14 PM
  #17  
Bear River's Avatar
Bear River
Former ******
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,901
Likes: 2
From: Salt Lake City, Utah
Originally Posted by EPNCSU2006
EGR does not increase power, although it's a better explanation than most I've seen on this site. The formation of NOx emissions does not take away any oxygen needed in the combustion chemical reaction.

From a power and performance standpoint EGR is not a good thing (it lowers volumetric efficiency for one, and how many racecars have EGR systems?), but from the emissions and fuel economy standpoint of a street engine, it is a very good thing.
You are correct, it doesn't increase power. It prevents preignition and the formation of NOX. The formation of NOX robs power (it uses up available oxygen and absorbs heat). So rather, it is preventing power loss. The formation of NOX does take away oxygen. This is not a theoretic problem, this is a very real problem and is part of the reason emission controls have proven to be so difficult to implement. The efficiency of a catalyst is dependant upon breaking down the NOX so the oxygen contained in it can be used to break down HC and CO. It is a very real problem. Most race tuners combat this problem with extra fuel under WOT and vehicle computers do it automatically for you.

Originally Posted by EPNCSU2006
The internal combustion engine is a heat engine, so more heat energy means more useful work out of the engine. This is why the manufacturers program the EGR to be closed at wide open throttle--to maximize performance where it counts, but still reduce NOx emissions and increase fuel economy at part throttle where most driving takes place.
This would be true if NOX formation wasn't a limiter of power potential. The EGR valve is a compromise. At WOT the EGR isn't opened because yes you want maximum power and emissions are not top priority under those conditions either, so the vehicle injects extra fuel to accomplish the same thing that the EGR valve would do. The EGR valve is helpful under light throttle conditions, and allows a great timing advance without wasting fuel to cool the engine down.

Nothing is perfect, and from a performance standpoint, an EGR is not very useful, but in a world where emissions and fuel economy are important, the EGR is beneficial.

Not to pick anything apart, but you are correct. More heat does equal more work right up to the point where NOX starts forming in excessive amounts. If atmospheric nitrogen could be removed from the equation, then you could get even more power. Also NOX is considered to be a harmful gas, it is acidic when it mixes with water, it burns mucous membranes, can cause or aggravate allergic reactions, and is responsible for most of the visible smog. (It reacts with other compounds in the air and with ozone and sunlight)

Better methods are being developed for controlling NOX emissions while increaseing combustion temperatures and fuel efficiency. Some of these new technologies are already available on some 2007 and 2008 model year vehicles, and are also coming into effect on 2007 and newer diesel vehicles (these new technolgies are less effective on diesel engines than in gasoline applications)
 
Reply
Old Dec 1, 2007 | 09:55 AM
  #18  
jimdandy's Avatar
jimdandy
Posting Guru
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,448
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by Bear River
EGR systems do not recirculate the exhaust gases for the purpose of reburning the mixture. The actual function of the EGR system is to introduce inert gases to dilute the mixture without changing the oxygen to fuel ratio. The reason you would want to do this is for reducing combustion temperature. Any reburning that happens is simply a nice coincidence. EGR helps greatly to reduce NOX emissions and prevents detonation, which in turn prevents engine damage and increases power. This is some ways may seem counter intuitive, but if the combustion get hot enough to form NOX, then valuable oxygen is used to form a useless compound, effectively robbing power and wasting fuel. By limiting the temperature of the burn, the maximum potential of the fuel can be realized.
From what source are you quoting this? jd
 
Reply
Old Dec 2, 2007 | 09:23 AM
  #19  
Bear River's Avatar
Bear River
Former ******
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,901
Likes: 2
From: Salt Lake City, Utah
Largely from a book titled "Catalytic Converter Theory, Operation, and Testing". I did not quote it exactly, but the book contains the graphs charts, formulas, demonstrates the chemical reactions that take place, and show the relationship between temperature and combustion efficiency.

The main reason race tuners don't care about using EGR to maximize the use of the fuel, is because fuel economy and emissions are not one of their primary concerns. They use a richer mixture instead, which accomplishes the same effect, but without reducing the volumetric efficiency. They also use high octane race fuel. The higher octane fuels do combat NOX formation by preventing ignition from the shockwave and ensuring the fuel in the cylinder only ignites from the flame front.
 
Reply
Old Jan 20, 2008 | 05:22 PM
  #20  
66F100Again's Avatar
66F100Again
Tuned
15 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 265
Likes: 5
From: Massachusetts
on the EGR issue, I think under the partial throttle condition it in practice does increase power by allowing more timing advance to be run by the computer. The inert gas keeps the mixture burning cooler (and a little less explosively); without it, the mixture gets hotter, detonation (knock) would happen, and the computer would dial-back the timing advance.
 
Reply
Old Jan 21, 2008 | 04:56 AM
  #21  
EPNCSU2006's Avatar
EPNCSU2006
Lead Driver
20 Year Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,557
Likes: 44
From: Concord, NC
NOx is a byproduct of combustion, not a hindrance to it. Max power output (and maximum combustion temperature and pressure) is achieved with a slightly rich mixture, not because NOx is "taking away oxygen from combustion." If that were happening and there was less oxygen available for combustion, wouldn't that require less fuel rather than more? EGR is simply an emissions control device used to lower peak combustion temperatures, thereby reducing NOx emissions and nothing more. I'll re-read my IC engines books just to double check, and post back later on.
 
Reply
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
trepid94
1973 - 1979 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks
1
Sep 18, 2016 11:48 AM
kevin316
1973 - 1979 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks
1
May 27, 2013 11:18 AM
Country Traveler
Excursion - King of SUVs
2
Jan 12, 2011 01:53 PM
krazdndenver
1967 - 1972 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks
6
Sep 21, 2002 07:06 AM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:06 PM.

story-0
Rezvani's Latest Post-Apocalytic Monster Is a Ford F-150 Raptor Underneath

Slideshow: Called the Fortress, the 850-horsepower pickup combines Raptor underpinnings with military-inspired features, survival equipment, and a starting price of $285,000.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-05-30 18:33:59


VIEW MORE
story-1
Top 10 Most Expensive Ford Trucks Ever Sold on Bring a Trailer

Slideshow: 10 most expensive Ford trucks ever sold on Bring a Trailer.

By Joe Kucinski | 2026-05-27 16:24:34


VIEW MORE
story-2
2027 Ford Super Duty Buyer's Guide (Every Model, Engine, & Package)

Here's everything that has changed for the latest model year.

By Brett Foote | 2026-05-27 16:17:28


VIEW MORE
story-3
Top 10 Ford Truck Tragedies

Slideshow: Top 10 Ford truck tragedies.

By Joe Kucinski | 2026-05-18 19:34:33


VIEW MORE
story-4
AEV FXL Super Duty - the Super Duty Raptor Ford Doesn't Make

And it might be even better than that.

By Brett Foote | 2026-05-18 19:26:42


VIEW MORE
story-5
Lobo Vs Lobo: Proof the F-150 Lobo Should Be Even Lower!

Slideshow: Does lowering an F-150 Lobo RUIN the ride quality?

By Michael S. Palmer | 2026-05-18 19:20:37


VIEW MORE
story-6
Ford's 2001 Explorer Sportsman Concept Looks For a New Home

Slideshow: Ford's bizarre fishing-themed Explorer concept has resurfaced after spending decades largely forgotten.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-05-12 18:07:46


VIEW MORE
story-7
10 Best Ford Truck Engines We Miss the Most!

Slideshow: The 10 best Ford truck engines we miss the most.

By Joe Kucinski | 2026-05-12 13:09:47


VIEW MORE
story-8
2026 Shelby F-150 Off-Road: Better Than a Raptor R?

Slideshow: first look at the 810 hp 2026 Shelby F-150 Off-Road!

By Brett Foote | 2026-05-12 12:50:07


VIEW MORE
story-9
2027 Super Duty Carhartt Package First Look: 12 Things You NEED to Know!

Slideshow: Everything You Need to Know about the 2027 Super Duty Carhartt Package!

By Michael S. Palmer | 2026-05-07 17:51:06


VIEW MORE