putting in a dryer plug
Postmaster
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Kentucky
Originally Posted by daddio360
just wanted to post about "**** & tube" wiring which many old houses in my area still have: It was a well-designed system & was not (nor is it currently) inherently unsafe.
This stuff has gotten a bum rap simply because at the time these houses were wired,
electricity was used mainly for lighting & small appliances like fans, etc. Consequently, there are not enough circuits and/or ample wire gauge to handle the loads required in a modern home. Whenever there is a fire in such a home, it is the "**** & tube" wiring that is blamed, not the inadequate circuits.
I had an home insurance agent who would not write policies if ANY **** & tube wiring was still in use. It's silly to rip up a ceiling or floor to replace K&T that is being used only for a lighting circuit, but this agent, with nearly zero electrical knowledge, knew better than my master electrician....
lesson: never argue with a fool...in no time you can't tell who's who!
This stuff has gotten a bum rap simply because at the time these houses were wired,
electricity was used mainly for lighting & small appliances like fans, etc. Consequently, there are not enough circuits and/or ample wire gauge to handle the loads required in a modern home. Whenever there is a fire in such a home, it is the "**** & tube" wiring that is blamed, not the inadequate circuits.
I had an home insurance agent who would not write policies if ANY **** & tube wiring was still in use. It's silly to rip up a ceiling or floor to replace K&T that is being used only for a lighting circuit, but this agent, with nearly zero electrical knowledge, knew better than my master electrician....
lesson: never argue with a fool...in no time you can't tell who's who!
Great post daddio and so true. It was the inadequate amount of circuits to carry the loads in the homes that caused the fires from overloading the wiring, not the design of the K&T wiring itself.
In my younger years I re-wired many old houses that had the **** and tube wiring and I replaced the K/T with the modern day cabling called type nm romex. **** and tube is safer than Type NM romex because :
- K/T being mounted on ceramic insulators, never touches wood like romex does.
- K/T's hot conductor and neutral can never touch internally like romex can, because they were run open parallel on seperate insulators. Conductor stress from stretching or staple/drywall/finish nails being driven thru it was non-existent.
- K/T was installed were it was never stretched over wood framing to tightly like romex gets done, which causes burn outs of the insulation.
- K/T was never put in romex cable connectors that get torqued too tightly, like the nm romex does now in electrical equipment entry points
- K/T did not get nail staples driven thru them
- K/T was never made in aluminum ( if I recall correctly )
- K/T never caused fires from rodents eating in to it like romex will which causes shorts / sparks between the hot /neutral /grounding conductor.
jmo
Last edited by Greg 79 f150; Dec 25, 2006 at 11:22 AM.
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Originally Posted by conger
It does not have to be GFI. The home owner can do some limited wiring in their own house,
Quebec is the exception.
I know people do anyway but there is the problem with a claim.... if a fire is started because of it.
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From: Edmonton, AB.
Your right... people do it any way. I should have phased that better. The home owner can pull a permit, but an electrician or a registered apprentice under supervision is supposed to do the work. If I sign off on work done by a layman, I become responsible. I would never do that. Man I've seen some horror shows by DYI wiring jobs. Most of the time it costs more to undo and redo. As for K&T; I wouldn't have it in my house. I also wouldn't allow many of the things with romex that "Greg 79" described on one of my jobs. That's mostly poor workmanship.
Postmaster
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Kentucky
Originally Posted by conger
Your right... people do it any way. I should have phased that better. The home owner can pull a permit, but an electrician or a registered apprentice under supervision is supposed to do the work. If I sign off on work done by a layman, I become responsible. I would never do that. Man I've seen some horror shows by DYI wiring jobs. Most of the time it costs more to undo and redo. As for K&T; I wouldn't have it in my house. I also wouldn't allow many of the things with romex that "Greg 79" described on one of my jobs. That's mostly poor workmanship.
I did not, nor do I think dadio was infering that K/T should be making a comeback. It was the beginning of the first electrical ditribution in homes and was all the industry had back in the pre 40's era. I have been in the construction/electrical industry a long time time and have done and seen, a lot of installations of romex. Yes, romex installations do get abused....
The electrical inspectors catch some of those abuses, but not near as many as should be caught. I rewired 4 homes that were burned caused from over stretching the cables to tight across ceiling joists, staples too tight and the 3/8 " romex connectors pinching the cables in recess cans. If a electrical contractor stays small and say, works only 5-10 employees, the owner can stay on top of the jobs. ...
Around here though, EC's have 50 -100 employees yanking romex in huge apartment complexes, subdivisions, small commercial office buildings. No way are these jobs being closely scrutinized for quality romex installations, by the EC owner or the inspectors..
Around here the HO can do any electrical work on their home they want. Any service entrance wiring or wiring originating from the breakerbox , is required to be inspected by the local electrical inspection agency.
Last edited by Greg 79 f150; Dec 25, 2006 at 04:32 PM.
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I've done so many basement reno's and garage wiring jobs,my master electrician friend says he hopes there is beer.... because he won't take long signing off as he says he knows it wil be done right anyway
That's a good feeling.
A few weeks ago I was getting weird looks from the neighbours because I was replacing the plastic cover NMD 90 14/2 in my garage with Armour Cable 12/2 because I didn't want the exposed /non-to-code wiring job in the garage.
That's a good feeling.
A few weeks ago I was getting weird looks from the neighbours because I was replacing the plastic cover NMD 90 14/2 in my garage with Armour Cable 12/2 because I didn't want the exposed /non-to-code wiring job in the garage.
Posting Guru
Joined: May 2006
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From: Edmonton, AB.
Here in Canada the Journeyman that is in charge of the job is legally responsible and liable for the job. If it's a house, appartment complex, whatever... They are also responsible for their apprentices. Some journeymen are good; some not so good. I've been running jobs for a long time. If I have people doing shoddy work; they're corrected if they don't know better or they're not around long. Stretched wire, skinned jackets, staples too tight or through the wire are all unacceptable practices in romex wiring. You get the same thing in commercial work as well. Poor pipe work, not enough strapping, poorly run bx cable in lighting drops. I keep an eye on the people that work for me until I trust their work. Others I've worked with I trust quickly when I see the way they work and if they take pride in what they do. It doesn't take to long to get a feel for the way an individual works. The ratio here, journeyman to apprentice is one to one. That's the law. Each Journeyman responsible for his apprentice and the Foreman is responsible for the entire electrical project. Most of the Inspectors I've met over the years get to know you & your work. The ones I've met don't miss much.
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