Household wiring question
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From: Location, Location.
Household wiring question
Gentlemen,
I'm renovating the basement and had an electrician do the wiring. I had him leave three outlets with the wires just hanging in the wall box (Marretted) instead of installing the outlets (so I could build around them). Now has come time to install the outlets and I've hit a mystery.
He's used four-conductor cable. Red, black, white, and bare copper ground wire. A standard outlet only needs three wires. So I've got an extra wire.
Now, I checked and there's continuity between the copper ground wire and the white wire. Back at the breaker box, the copper wire is connected directly to the breaker box itself, and the white wire is connected to the grounding bar, so, no surprise they're connected to each other.
So, do I just have two grounds, both of which are meant to be connected to th eground screw on the outlets? Seems odd to me.
I'd ask my electrician, but he's away on holidays for a month. Is this some standard wiring method I've just never seen before?
Thanks.
I'm renovating the basement and had an electrician do the wiring. I had him leave three outlets with the wires just hanging in the wall box (Marretted) instead of installing the outlets (so I could build around them). Now has come time to install the outlets and I've hit a mystery.
He's used four-conductor cable. Red, black, white, and bare copper ground wire. A standard outlet only needs three wires. So I've got an extra wire.
Now, I checked and there's continuity between the copper ground wire and the white wire. Back at the breaker box, the copper wire is connected directly to the breaker box itself, and the white wire is connected to the grounding bar, so, no surprise they're connected to each other.
So, do I just have two grounds, both of which are meant to be connected to th eground screw on the outlets? Seems odd to me.
I'd ask my electrician, but he's away on holidays for a month. Is this some standard wiring method I've just never seen before?
Thanks.
New User
Joined: Jan 2008
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The white wire at the box ?
Is that hooked to the same bar with all the other white wires ?
If so,the white is the *Common Circuit*
at the box:
Bare goes to ground
White goes to Common
Black goes to breaker
at the receptacle
Bare wire goes to ground screw & green screw on the plug-in
White goes to silver screw on plug-in
Black goes to gold screw on plug-in
AFAIK, The red gets snipped and taped
Is that hooked to the same bar with all the other white wires ?
If so,the white is the *Common Circuit*
at the box:
Bare goes to ground
White goes to Common
Black goes to breaker
at the receptacle
Bare wire goes to ground screw & green screw on the plug-in
White goes to silver screw on plug-in
Black goes to gold screw on plug-in
AFAIK, The red gets snipped and taped
Thread Starter
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Posting Guru
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From: Location, Location.
Yes, at the breaker box, white is to the common. Copper is to ground.
I'm familiar with wiring the three - black, white, copper.
So, what you're saying is that my electrician had run out of three-conductor cable and used four-conductor instead. SOB - could have just gone to get the right cbale.
Anyway - just cut and Marrette the red and forget about it. It's simple - I like it. We'll see what the electrical inspector says about these dangling red wires.....
I'm familiar with wiring the three - black, white, copper.
So, what you're saying is that my electrician had run out of three-conductor cable and used four-conductor instead. SOB - could have just gone to get the right cbale.
Anyway - just cut and Marrette the red and forget about it. It's simple - I like it. We'll see what the electrical inspector says about these dangling red wires.....
Elder User
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: Floriduh
the insphincter wont lik the extra wire I'm sure....It raises to many eyebrows. But he may go for it. I would hook up the receptacles and try to pass it. As for your electrician, thats what they do. It would be TOO easy to just get the right wire.
New User
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That's what I'm assuming.
Can you see where the red is running to confirm what is up with it ?
When covering a dangling wire first a Marrette & then Tape it up.
That red is usually for 2-way lighting.
But it can also be for wiring other circuits or replacing either the black or white if they should go bad.
Can you see where the red is running to confirm what is up with it ?
When covering a dangling wire first a Marrette & then Tape it up.
That red is usually for 2-way lighting.
But it can also be for wiring other circuits or replacing either the black or white if they should go bad.
Senior User
Joined: May 2004
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From: NJ
It is probably a standard outlet hook up. The Copper wire gets hooked up to the green screw on the outlet, The white gets hooked up to the silver screw on the outlet and the black goes to the brass screw on the outlet. The black wire at the panel gets hooked to a breaker and snapped in. I would not cut the red wire just put a wire nut on it and tape it. If you ever break the black wire you could use the red to supply power to the outlet.
Eddie
Eddie
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Before you do any 'cutting', where do the black and red wires go in the box??
Don't know why he'd do this in your case, but it's possible that the red is hot also.
Do you have an AC voltmeter or test light to check if the black and/or red are hot?
[And a side note, I assume the breaker(s) are not Ground Fault Interrupts (GFI's) - if they are, the white (neutral) would connect to the breaker also. If you connect the white wire to the buss, any current draw greater than ~ .005 amps (5mA) better trip the GFI. This happened at my house, knew just what it was when it happened, but left it so I could explain to the electrician how to wire it - scary ain't it. . .]
Don't know why he'd do this in your case, but it's possible that the red is hot also.
Do you have an AC voltmeter or test light to check if the black and/or red are hot?
[And a side note, I assume the breaker(s) are not Ground Fault Interrupts (GFI's) - if they are, the white (neutral) would connect to the breaker also. If you connect the white wire to the buss, any current draw greater than ~ .005 amps (5mA) better trip the GFI. This happened at my house, knew just what it was when it happened, but left it so I could explain to the electrician how to wire it - scary ain't it. . .]
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I would check voltage between red and white wires...what you described is commonly done to provide two circuits ...using one wire. If Im correct...there is 220 volts between the black and the red. Soooo take black and white for one 110 v circuit and red and white for circuit #2....which also has 110 volts.....easy to tell if this is the case by looking at the breaker.....is it a double pole breaker?....if so.....thats what electrician did
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Thread Starter
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Posting Guru
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From: Location, Location.
OK, I think this is cleared up. But just to tie up loose ends and questions:
In the breaker box:
breakers are not GFI
copper is to ground
white is to common
black & red are dangling
At the outlet box:
currently all are dangling.
At the breaker box I'm going to connect the black to a breaker, and Marrette & tape the red.
At the outlet box, I'm going to connect the outlet as usual, and Marrette and tape the red.
If the inspector asks, I'll tell him it's foresight in case some day the black breaks.
Thanks everyone for your help.
In the breaker box:
breakers are not GFI
copper is to ground
white is to common
black & red are dangling
At the outlet box:
currently all are dangling.
At the breaker box I'm going to connect the black to a breaker, and Marrette & tape the red.
At the outlet box, I'm going to connect the outlet as usual, and Marrette and tape the red.
If the inspector asks, I'll tell him it's foresight in case some day the black breaks.
Thanks everyone for your help.
Senior User
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after reading what I wrote .....a short footnote:...its entirely possible that the electrician used 2- single pole breakers and everything else as in my posting above...the voltage test between white and red (110 volts) is key to this question of what "red" is.....good luck!
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Posting Guru
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From: Location, Location.
Except there's no voltage between red and black or red/black and anything, because they're both just floppin' in the breeze inside the breaker box, not connected to anything at this point. They can become what I want.... although now that you metion it, the only remaining breakers left are two double-breakers. And there are two cables, each with four conductors. But this is just a little kitchen island. It woudln't seem reasonable to imagine the electrician had planned four outlets for this little thing.
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The elctrician I used did what buffalobob described - used a 4-conductor wire for 2 'hot' circuits. I personally don't like this as they share the neutral (not a big deal), but if they (the black and red) are on adjacent breakers, they are on two different circuits (phases) and I'd much prefer NOT to have a common neutral for two different phases - will work for sure, but I'd use two seperate 3-conductor wires. Even seperate circuits on the same phase should have its own neutral IMO. More work, but its much easier to follow, and if you ever do want a GFI breaker, forget about it!
Question: does two phases (or 2 circuits of the same phase) sharing a common neutral comply with electrical wiring codes??
Question: does two phases (or 2 circuits of the same phase) sharing a common neutral comply with electrical wiring codes??
FTE Chapter Leader
Joined: Sep 2000
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From: Beachville, Ontario
I think cjstang has the answer here, you could wire them up as split receptacles on 2 breakers. My kitchen is wired with split receptacles but I never asked the previous owner if he used 2-3 conductor wires or if he used the 4 conductor wire. If you look at the electrical outlet, there should be 2 screws on either side, 2 for black wire, 2 for white wire, and a tab between the screws that can be broken out should you choose to go the split receptacle route.
BTW, 4 conductor wiring is handy for ceiling fans with light fixtures, then you can have the fan and light on separate switches, instead of having to pull the chain to turn the light off with the fan on. My master bedroom is this way, but not the kitchen. Stupid previous owner......
BTW, 4 conductor wiring is handy for ceiling fans with light fixtures, then you can have the fan and light on separate switches, instead of having to pull the chain to turn the light off with the fan on. My master bedroom is this way, but not the kitchen. Stupid previous owner......
