Rebuilt 302 is overheating quickly
Thread Starter
|
More Turbo
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 621
Likes: 2
From: Marana, AZ
OK, Update: I took the valves out of the head and cleaned up the bowls real good. Still no evidence of a crack. I am dropping the heads off tomorrow to have them pressure tested. The valves spun nicely and the setas looked great so I was a little concerned about that #7 low psi reading, so I decided to pull the lifters and have a look at them. Well I have disaster on my hands!
Heres what #7 intake lifter looks like after 20 mins of 2000rpm break-in, the lifter on the right is the exhaust:
What in the world would cause this? I used the assembly lube that cam with CompCam, lubed up each lobe real well, lubed the bottoms of the lifters real well. Started the motor and kept the rpms up to 2k for as long as I could before she started to overheat on me.
I did notice on the Cam card that came with it said, I must use Comp Cams 942-16 springs with the 832-16 lifters for the warranty to be in effect. Well I used the lifters but not the valve springs. I used what ever springs came on the heads from the machine shop that I bought them from. Was that a big mistake?
Is my cam toast now as well? I haven't pulled it to look at it yet because the block is still in the truck.
Heres what #7 intake lifter looks like after 20 mins of 2000rpm break-in, the lifter on the right is the exhaust:
What in the world would cause this? I used the assembly lube that cam with CompCam, lubed up each lobe real well, lubed the bottoms of the lifters real well. Started the motor and kept the rpms up to 2k for as long as I could before she started to overheat on me.
I did notice on the Cam card that came with it said, I must use Comp Cams 942-16 springs with the 832-16 lifters for the warranty to be in effect. Well I used the lifters but not the valve springs. I used what ever springs came on the heads from the machine shop that I bought them from. Was that a big mistake?
Is my cam toast now as well? I haven't pulled it to look at it yet because the block is still in the truck.
Postmaster
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,656
Likes: 1
No you should use a lighter spring for the brake in, you did good, after the brake in you should change the springs to the higher pressure spring.
Did you use the 15w 40 retola-T with the GM additive when you first ran the motor. It a good idea, the new oils of today are missing some stuff that helps stop this from happening.
I think you need to go deaper into it and replace the cam. Sorry but you got hit with the bad cam syndrome, sucks big time...but the cam is junk.........I've been there...sorry but it's junk.
Steve...........
Close the hood for a few days and let it set.
Did you use the 15w 40 retola-T with the GM additive when you first ran the motor. It a good idea, the new oils of today are missing some stuff that helps stop this from happening.
I think you need to go deaper into it and replace the cam. Sorry but you got hit with the bad cam syndrome, sucks big time...but the cam is junk.........I've been there...sorry but it's junk.
Steve...........
Close the hood for a few days and let it set.
Last edited by HemiEater; Dec 26, 2006 at 06:37 PM.
Postmaster
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,656
Likes: 1
Same thing happened to an earlier post about a loose rocker, the guy found the shorter lift and just replaced it thinking life is good but he will be back on here asking about another loose rocker in few miles. The lifter has to wear into the cam as a unit, if it don't the lifter will not spin in the hole, so it just gets worn down like yours, but so does the cam, if you just put another lifter in there it is sure to fail again......
Postmaster
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,656
Likes: 1
Thread Starter
|
More Turbo
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 621
Likes: 2
From: Marana, AZ
I used Pennzoil straight 30 HD oil for the break in. Thats what the guy at CompCams told me to use. Do you think that maybe that lifter got wiped out because it failed to be able to rotate in the lifter bore? I do remember having trouble getting a few to slide in when I was installing them, not hit with hammer trouble, just didn't slide in as easy as the rest. I pulled the lifter on #5 cylinder because that was m y next lowest compression reading, 132 psi if I remember, sure enough its starting to get wiped out as well. Not as bad but starting to. I'm scared to death to by another cam like that one. Or do you think it would have happened to a stock cam as well?
I suppose CompCams won't warranty this cam will they?
And yes, I locked the shop up and walked away frustrated today, I'll drop off the heads in the morning to the machine shop and pray they find something for me to understand this overheating problem. I'm gonna give it a rest and gather my thoughts as to how to attack this thing from a different angle maybe
Really appreciate all yours and Dans help with this.
I suppose CompCams won't warranty this cam will they?
And yes, I locked the shop up and walked away frustrated today, I'll drop off the heads in the morning to the machine shop and pray they find something for me to understand this overheating problem. I'm gonna give it a rest and gather my thoughts as to how to attack this thing from a different angle maybe
Really appreciate all yours and Dans help with this.
Postmaster
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,656
Likes: 1
Nothing to do with the type of cam you run. I have had a custom flat tappet cam go bad as well as two from comps. you just never know, but the last two motors I did I used retola-T and the gm stuff and so far so good.
I'll be finishing the Clevor for my 63 Falcon in the next few weeks, going to fire it on an engine stand to test everything before I install it. Wish me luck with the cam, It's a custom grind from Cam Research.......
I'll be finishing the Clevor for my 63 Falcon in the next few weeks, going to fire it on an engine stand to test everything before I install it. Wish me luck with the cam, It's a custom grind from Cam Research.......
Posting Guru
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,118
Likes: 0
From: Williamson, NY
I do not know how long your engine was assembled before you started it, but I found that CompCams Assembly Lube sucks big time. I used it on one of my engine rebuilds and I used it on one of their cams and installed it into the engine and I stopped for the night. The next night I went back in to work on the engine and all the assembly lube had dripped off the cam! It looked as if I had never put any lube on it at all and I had really laid it on thick when I installed it. I went out and got some Lunati cam lube and this stuff stayed put. The Lunati lube looks like a thick black grease.
Hotshot
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,170
Likes: 5
From: The hills of No. Calif.
When I was a kid I rebuilt an Olds 330, shortly after break-in I had a lifter go bad just like that one. I shone a strong light down in the lifter bore so I could see the lobe of the cam, turned it all the way over and it looked okay so I dropped a new lifter in, changed the oil and filter and never had another problem with it. Never really did know why it did that...
Your results may vary...
Now, I'm thinking that you may have a binding problem with those lifters. They should simply drop into the bore when lubed up, certainly no force required to get them in. Use some carb cleaner or lacquer thinner on a clean rag to clean up those lifter bores, there's probably some traces of varnish in there that's cusing the excessive friction. When I'm doing a rebuild I like to hit the lifter bores very briefly with a wheel cylinder hone to clean them up, but you wouldn't want to do that with the engine assembled and certainly not with the cam in place if it's got any chance at all of being salvagable. (It most likely doesn't, but I like to at least try to be optimistic!)
BTW, excellent article, Steve. Good find!
Your results may vary...
Now, I'm thinking that you may have a binding problem with those lifters. They should simply drop into the bore when lubed up, certainly no force required to get them in. Use some carb cleaner or lacquer thinner on a clean rag to clean up those lifter bores, there's probably some traces of varnish in there that's cusing the excessive friction. When I'm doing a rebuild I like to hit the lifter bores very briefly with a wheel cylinder hone to clean them up, but you wouldn't want to do that with the engine assembled and certainly not with the cam in place if it's got any chance at all of being salvagable. (It most likely doesn't, but I like to at least try to be optimistic!)
BTW, excellent article, Steve. Good find!
FTE Stories
Ford Trucks for Ford Truck Enthusiasts
Rezvani's Latest Post-Apocalytic Monster Is a Ford F-150 Raptor Underneath
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Most Expensive Ford Trucks Ever Sold on Bring a Trailer
Joe Kucinski
2027 Ford Super Duty Buyer's Guide (Every Model, Engine, & Package)
Brett Foote
Top 10 Ford Truck Tragedies
Joe Kucinski
AEV FXL Super Duty - the Super Duty Raptor Ford Doesn't Make
Brett Foote
Lobo Vs Lobo: Proof the F-150 Lobo Should Be Even Lower!
Michael S. Palmer
Ford's 2001 Explorer Sportsman Concept Looks For a New Home
Verdad Gallardo
10 Best Ford Truck Engines We Miss the Most!
Joe Kucinski
2026 Shelby F-150 Off-Road: Better Than a Raptor R?
Brett Foote
Thread Starter
|
More Turbo
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 621
Likes: 2
From: Marana, AZ
Thanks for optimism Dan
Sure would be grand if that cam survived that but I think Steve is right its probably toast. So I have a few questions that come to mind as I contemplate all this.
1. Where did all that metal from the lifter and cam go? Into my oil of course and so now I have to consider wipe out crank and journal bearings?
2. Should I just start over and tear the whole thing down to make sure there is no other damage in the engine?
3. If I did tear it all down and found no damage can still re-use the same bearings again if still good?
4. I know your suppose to keep the rockers and the pedestals mated together, but I had a few that got knocked over on the work bench and I tried to pair them up as best as I could by looking at the wear patterns. Could that be another reason the lifters could have been wiped out?
As for the Cam lube, I installed the cam on one Saturday and then dropped the motor in the truck the next Saturday and didn't finally fire it up until Tuesday. So maybe my cam lube fell off as well??
Sure would be grand if that cam survived that but I think Steve is right its probably toast. So I have a few questions that come to mind as I contemplate all this.1. Where did all that metal from the lifter and cam go? Into my oil of course and so now I have to consider wipe out crank and journal bearings?
2. Should I just start over and tear the whole thing down to make sure there is no other damage in the engine?
3. If I did tear it all down and found no damage can still re-use the same bearings again if still good?
4. I know your suppose to keep the rockers and the pedestals mated together, but I had a few that got knocked over on the work bench and I tried to pair them up as best as I could by looking at the wear patterns. Could that be another reason the lifters could have been wiped out?
As for the Cam lube, I installed the cam on one Saturday and then dropped the motor in the truck the next Saturday and didn't finally fire it up until Tuesday. So maybe my cam lube fell off as well??
Last edited by desertdave35; Dec 26, 2006 at 10:05 PM.
Hotshot
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,170
Likes: 5
From: The hills of No. Calif.
Did you pre-lube the motor before you fired it?
I wouldn't be too concerned about the rockers and pedestals getting a little mixed up, and I highly doubt that would have caused your problem.
The cam and lifters get their oil after the crank, so hopefully the metal that came off of them was returned to the pan and filtered out before it could get to the bearings. I'd certainly yank the filter and cut it open for a look-see.
I wouldn't be too concerned about the rockers and pedestals getting a little mixed up, and I highly doubt that would have caused your problem.
The cam and lifters get their oil after the crank, so hopefully the metal that came off of them was returned to the pan and filtered out before it could get to the bearings. I'd certainly yank the filter and cut it open for a look-see.
Thread Starter
|
More Turbo
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 621
Likes: 2
From: Marana, AZ
Yes I did pre-lube it, but I did it when it was on the stand. I basically took a 1/4" socket and a long extension and ran the pump until I seen oil flowing out of the rockers. But the engine didn't get fired up until 3 days later after I dropped it in the truck. I got to thinking about it last night laying in bed, when I did go to fire it up it wouldn't start. I probably cranked it for about a minute and heard some backfireing going on inside the motor and knew right away I was 180* off on the distributor. Sure enough I was, reset the dizzy and then she fired right up. I'm starting to think that cranking the motor for that minute might have wiped all the lube off the cam and lifters as well.
After reading that article that Steve posted it said to prime the system just before you start it up. But when I've rebuilt other motors I have always done it that way as well. I'm still betting on the 2 lifters that are bad were just not rotating in their bores.
After reading that article that Steve posted it said to prime the system just before you start it up. But when I've rebuilt other motors I have always done it that way as well. I'm still betting on the 2 lifters that are bad were just not rotating in their bores.
Posting Guru
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,118
Likes: 0
From: Williamson, NY
Originally Posted by cujo8
I do not know how long your engine was assembled before you started it, but I found that CompCams Assembly Lube sucks big time. I used it on one of my engine rebuilds and I used it on one of their cams and installed it into the engine and I stopped for the night. The next night I went back in to work on the engine and all the assembly lube had dripped off the cam! It looked as if I had never put any lube on it at all and I had really laid it on thick when I installed it. I went out and got some Lunati cam lube and this stuff stayed put. The Lunati lube looks like a thick black grease.
Jim
Thread Starter
|
More Turbo
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 621
Likes: 2
From: Marana, AZ
Well I just got back from the machine shop. They did a pressure test on both heads, everything is good to go. Then they did a magnaflux check, everything was good. Then I had them check it out for warped head and they said you can't get them any flatter than they are now. So that leads me back to why the overheating and pressurizing of the coolant? There is no other place for exhaust to enter the cooling system except thru the heads. Maybe the head gaskets were not sealing all that good?
Which leads me to my next question, do you guys install your head gaskets bare or do you coat the with an aluminized or copper paint?
Summit Racing is overnighting a new cam,lifters and gasket kit to me. Hopefully I can get this baby running over the 3 day weekend. I bought some Shell Rotella T 15W 40 oil and some better cam break-in lube. I also bought a wheel cylinder hone to hone the lifter bores to make sure the lifters go in easier this time.
Which leads me to my next question, do you guys install your head gaskets bare or do you coat the with an aluminized or copper paint?
Summit Racing is overnighting a new cam,lifters and gasket kit to me. Hopefully I can get this baby running over the 3 day weekend. I bought some Shell Rotella T 15W 40 oil and some better cam break-in lube. I also bought a wheel cylinder hone to hone the lifter bores to make sure the lifters go in easier this time.
Postmaster
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,656
Likes: 1
Well thats good news....Make sure your head bolt hole in the block are clean to the bottom. I had a volvo B20 engine that had two head bolt holes full of crud, the head was installed and runing when I got it, torqued to spec but still had a 1/4 of an inch to go before they started pulling the head down.
wonder if a crack in a cylinder would do this, never seen one craked, as it been bored?
Did you ever pressure test the cooling system? Can't remember....
wonder if a crack in a cylinder would do this, never seen one craked, as it been bored?
Did you ever pressure test the cooling system? Can't remember....