This is true,

I do not know if the Ridgeline was released in Japan, I assume it was. If so, most japanese really need nothing more than a ridgeline. It would really be a very suitable truck for most over there.

Alot of people think anything released is only for US consumers. A GMC Sierra denali probably doesn't have much of a place outside of the US or Can. Even these trucks are rarely used for anything more than driving to the office in the city.

Its a good thing we have a choice on what we want to buy, Most Ford owners buy the truck for its intended use, does not mean the Ridgeline is really any less of a vehicle, just not on the same tier.

 

So, could you please explain what is the OFFICIAL definition of an American car?

And could you also document the source of that definition for everybody to see?

Make sure that the definition is also notarized.


Thankx.

 

Alot of people interviewed said it wasn't really design but lack of reliability of american cars that kept them away.I just think the japaneze factories have to be run alot better for this to happen.The company I work for makes parts for heavy construction equipment.I have addressed problems that could double our output and have been shot down every time because they don't want to make waves.Had a friend that worked at the honda plant in ohio after working for gm and got fired because he couldn't go to work drunk. I just wonder how many american companies are like this.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powerdude

So, could you please explain what is the OFFICIAL definition of an American car?

And could you also document the source of that definition for everybody to see?

Make sure that the definition is also notarized.

Thankx.

Well, the definition I use is what country the profits are going. Sure, any plant in the US is giving money to the US, but the profits are going to Japan or wherever the company is based. I think most people use this definition. Let me ask you this- is a Ford built in Mexico or Thiland an American Car? Or is it an Mexican car?

If we consider a Japanese car built in the US an American car, we must consider a Ford built in Mexico a Mexican car even though the profits come back to the US.

So,would you consider a F650 an American truck? Think before you answer. Now, what if I told you it was built in Mexico (which it is)? Is it still American? I think so. This is the same with any imported vehicle. Even though it may be built here, it is still a Japanese/etc. car.

An interesting case is Dodge trucks. It is a German-owned Amiericn company which builds many of its trucks in Mexico. Some people consider Dodge an American company because it started here, others consider it a German company because it is owned from there. But very few consider it a Mexican truck/company.

You can disagree with me, but IMO the if the profits come back to the US, it is an American car. If the profits go to Japan, it is a Japenese car, no matter where it was built.

let it be known that I have all the respect for the workers in these plants because it is a job and people have to make a living, and it is probably a more secure job than working for Ford or Gm right now with the layoffs. But just because it was made by Americans does not mean that it is American if the profits go to Japan.

 

The "Where the profits go" analysis is much too simplistic to determine which vehicle is or is not American.

These corporations are GLOBAL, not NATIONAL. The profits go to global shareholders in the form of dividends or in the form of increased equity share. If I buy a German / Mexican Dodge and that product generates a profit for D-C, the profits do not "go" to the US or to Germany but rather flow in part to each shareholder - regardless of nationality.

If you want to talk about how to actually benefit the US economy with you truck purchase, you have to engage in a more complex and difficult analysis. For starters, how much of the profit is being re-invested in the country of manufacture? For example, D-C is dumping lots of money into the Mexican truck plant. If I were a Mexican truck buyer, I'd think seriously about buying a Dodge truck (all other things being equal) because the parent company is making huge investments in my economy.

The US truck buyer? Well, if D-C's profits flow to global investors and Mexican plants, maybe buying a Dodge truck doesn't do much of anything to help our economy (aside from the salesman and the dealer who will be fixing that transmission and front end). What about a Toyota? What if Toyota hires a lot of Americans and makes HUGE investments in this country while other companies outsource, claiming that it is too expensive to manufacture here? Perhaps a US patriot my reasonably conclude that his or her truck dollar does the most good for this country by buying a Toyota truck- something people above claim as not "American'.

Let's look at Ford. I am ordering a new truck in the next 4-6 weeks (in order to miss the '07 EGR mess) and I have to choose between Ford and D-C. While trucks have strengths and weaknesses, the Ford is built with US labor and, I hope, by buying a Ford truck there will (in small part) be fewer US job losses. I hope Ford will take that "profit" and reinvest in US manufacturing, research and development.

But in reality, a share of the "profit" from selling a new truck to me will go to shareholders in the form of dividends. (The value of Ford stock continues to dive, do I doubt the shareholders will get any sort of equity value hike for some time to come... if ever) So, do I care if the Ford family and other American and global investors get a few fractions of a penny instead of the Germans and other global investors?

Not really- it is too amorphous to really get your hands around. So I go back to thinking about how to help the US economy with jobs. And that goes back to the KC Light Truck Plant.

I suspect that the reality is that it will become more and more difficult to discern the nationality of most cars in the future. Parts content will be even more mixed, the corporate ownership dispersed and the point of manufacture scattered around the globe.

Times have changed. The old models of thinking of cars as "American" or "Foreign" are close to obsolete. I think instead we should look at the investments these corporations are making in our communities across America. If we care about this nation and this economy, I think we should pay more attention to who is building what here and figuring out ways to encourage them to continue to make capital and labor investments here.

Simply hiding behind the flag and pretending that something is or is not "American" because it was once a US company is simplistic, naive, and detrimental to the very causes the arm-chair-patriot purports to believe in and uphold.

A US flag on the Dodge is not enough to make up for the fact that the buyer chose to support the flow of manufacturing jobs out of the US. The majority shareholders of D-C are not American. Now tell me how buying a Dodge built in Mexico is better for the US economy than a Toyota or Nissan, designed and built in the United States.

In this market, everyone is free to buy whatever he or she wants to buy. But we cannot have it both ways. After a while, you cannot hide behind the flag while failing to invest in the companies making investments in your community. Otherwise all that will remain is Social Security, unemployment, the government and the Bush deficit.

Meanwhile, Consumer Reports will continue compiling and reporting statistics and fools like us will pretend the statistics are biased each time the numbers do not agree with our belief that we just purchased the very best car / truck available.

It is not that the numbers are wrong. It's just that making these purchasing decisions is a lot more complicated that just numbers. Some need a product with greater capacity than offered by other manufactures. Some, like me, have a built in preference for a particular brand because we are familiar with it and it is a know commodity- like a friend. And sometimes we do not like the "type" of people who may typically select another type of product. It is not rational, but even if we had certified proof that GM made the best truck, I would not buy a new one- simply because too many people I do not like drive that truck.

This makes me irrational and a little bit stupid, but it does not mean that people who do buy that truck or publications that report the statistical superiority of another product are biased. It means that it is only part of the story.

Take for example the Consumer Reports section on "exhaust system" problems. Subaru has always fared poorly in this section. And I suspect that Suby parts are pretty cheap- but no cheaper than any other in their market segment. Instead, I suspect that a higher percentage of Subys live in rust belt states where snow and salt are facts of life (4x). So, these cars face more exhaust failures than say, Mazda Miatas that may enjoy a more salt-free life per unit. This does not mean that Consumer Reports has a bias; it just means that statistics tell only part of the story.

Last- if you believe in the free market and you believe that people are by-and-large rational actors, then you have to accept that if more people chose Brand A over Brand B, there is a good reason for it. Ford and GM have both lost market share again. Part of that is due to a shift in consumer preference away from large SUVs. But even with that shift, why is it that these large corporations were placing so much emphasis on this segment rather than reinvesting in better cars and new technology? It seems like a no-brainer to develop a fuel-efficient diesel half-ton and drop it on the US market. Instead, someone else appears ready to beat Ford and GM to that market.

That failure is not Consumer Report's fault. The failure to create and supply new markets is not the result of 3rd party bias. Instead, that is a failure of leadership vision.

For that failure, the market has held Ford and GM accountable (Their shares trade at junk bond status). I believe in the free market and I think that instead of relying on branding, product placement, incentives and technology licensing- GM and Ford should clean corporate house and go back to building market share the old fashioned way- by earning it.

Until then- I'll buy another truck built at the KC Light Truck Plant in part because I want to support the working American- In spite of the failure of Ford's leadership. And if Ford goes under or starts building 11,500 GVW trucks in Mexico, then I will look for a company that is investing and manufacturing in the US. Right now, Toyota and Nissan are making those investments. For them, it looks like "where the profits go" leads back to the US. So much for what is and is not “American”.

-Mike

 

For those in here that have wondered about what should be posted in thei forum - the above is a prime example. An opinion supported by factual evidence.

Kudos! Darn good post there.

 

That was a great post! I agree with fact that this is a global economy, BUT I base my decision on whether brand x be a domestic or foreign brand by what country the headquarters are in, OR the country the co/inc originated from, not at all where the investors are from.

I see this global economy (everyone seems to bring up from time to time) as unfair toward US based manufacturers. They seem to have unlimited access to our market(s), with very little if any return trade as in imports from this country. It certainly seems to me any country has a win win situation with the good ole US in trade agreements. For instance, I wonder are there the same percentage of Ford lots in Japan as there are toy lots here? I would venture a bet - not!

Onwards!! I still have yet to see/witness any proof that foreign anything is better, and I believe much of this "idea" has to do with an unfounded perception (and for the life of me I cannot figure out why) that Japanese auto quality is considered better. For what it's worth, the experience this guy has had with foreign anything has been mediocre at best, and that's putting it lightly.

Without getting into the politics of this rant of mine, I basically don't see this global economy as fair to US manufacturers with regards to imports/exports %'s. I believe we're being short-changed!! If it's going to be a global economy, that it should be a "fair" global economy not lop-sided.

This might be part of the driving force behind US manufacturers building some plants in other country's just to keep/get their foot in the door, so to speak/write. One thing is a for sure, it's a mess!

 

"Otherwise all that will remain is Social Security, unemployment, the government and the Bush deficit."

I guess. If you remove the underhanded CS political slap at Bush.

Also, if you think that a Mexican-assembled Ford pickup is less economically beneficial to the U. S. than a U.S.-assembled Japanese vehicle, I vehemently disagree. There's a lot more to the argument than what you presented. More than likely, the new plant in Texas is being built with Mexican/South American labor. I would not doubt that many of the "employees" of the new Texas plant will be "contractors" composed mostly of Mexican/South American labor. The actual employees will be paid MUCH less than their Japanese counterparts and they will not receive ANY retirement or retiree-medical benefits. In fact, the Americans making high salaries at the Texas plant will be VERY few and FAR between. The big jobs will go to the Japanese with a couple of Americans thrown in for show. The American hourly folks will be making the equivalent of truck driver pay with few benefits.

At the end of the day we'll have a lot more Americans that are a drag on the system as they won't have adequate money to live off of in their retirement years. Combine this with the fact that the construction project will bring more illegals into the U.S. which will be a drag on the government through educating their kids and paying for their medical bills. Nevermind the fact that they take real money away from American workers.

 

I emplore anyone to explain how a study from CR (any in fact) is somehow representative of the American public when their study is based on a controlled sample of CR subscribers?

I don't know about most of you, but the majority of the American public doesn't subscribe to CR.

CR's study is representative of CR subscribers, and nothing more. The fact that they are claiming that it is representative of the American public is utter hogwash, and thier pitful sampling techniques certainly don't back them up either. This is what makes them biased.

 

Ummm, i pretty much agree CTford hit the nail on the head. Who ever gets the profets, and owns the company, and controls how its ran is the owner. If the owner is german and lives in germany then its a german car, is it not? Ford, which is american owned, and desinged, and engineered here is american, reguardless where its assembled. Even though japense cars are made here there owned by the company with is in japan unti a dealership buys that car

 

CR is not biased, what they are is representing the view of ther readers. That is who is paying the bill. If Ken & FTE where to commision and award best a best truck of the year award sampling FTE members what company do you think would win every year. What CR is though is not very vehicle savey. Go look at the write up on the Vette. They got almost everything wrong.

Truck Trend/Motor Trend awards is based on new design only so it is easy to see why the Ridgeline won it. Next year it could very well be the new Super Duties if they make it to production. Car & Driver on the other hand give there awards to best in class period regarless of how old the design is.

In the end I don't pay much attention to CR but it is a data point that is helpful when making a purchase though I won't subscribe. I much perfer J.D. Powers, Car & Driver and a host of other web sites and surveys when judging a vehicle.

 

tmyers, you don't think that the "donations" accepted by CR has an influence on them? Until CR has a 3rd party audited disclosure of all income, I won't believe anything they print.

 

Again they are just representing the view of there readers. That is who is doing the surveys. If you are not a subsrciber you don't get to play. Nothing wrong with that provided you know it. For there survey I bet most of the subscribers agree that it is right on. No different than if Ken did a survey of us for a truck of the year award. Ford would win every year. The only question would be is it the Ranger, the F150, F250 or F350.

Sure advertising dollars might play a role but that can also be said about any survey you read. There are no true 3rd party compaies out there that do this stuff for free. Even J.D. Powers is getting paid by the auto companies. But I tend to believe them because of the survey method, it is a random sampling.

 

CR develops their vehicle rating not just from subscriber surveys but they also test each vehicle that they rate.


Consumer Reports is a non-profit organization which means they have no "persuasion" from ANY manufacturer.

From their web site:

"To maintain our independence and impartiality, CU accepts no outside advertising, no free test samples, and has no agenda other than the interests of consumers."

Also,

"Your tax-deductible donation supports these ongoing testing and information activities of Consumer Reports.

Consumer Reports receives no corporate donations, samples, or advertising. We are independent, expert, and unbiased. We rely on the generosity of individuals, foundations and other noncommercial sources to support and further the valuable work and services we provide to consumers."

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Consumer Reports does it for "free" in the sense that they aren't taking money from any of the manufacturers of the products they are testing. As such, CR probably has the least amount of bias of any "testing agency".


My Opinion Regarding Consumer Reports and FTE:

If Consumer Reports was giving high marks to Ford Products all the users on this site would be giving them the highest marks and going on and on about what excellent sampling they use and how they are unbiased, etc.

But, since Ford didn't far too well in the comparo's this year just about all you hear is a big loud

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

But, I'm sure the guys on the Chevy and Dodge sites, (not to mention MB and BMW) are hollering just as loud!



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Have you ever heard of the Japan Automobile Education Foundation?