Originally Posted by farmtwuck

That's exactly what I figured. Sticking to your opinion is much easier than challenging your opinion and finding out you might be wrong.

Originally Posted by okst1

mschultz, excellent post. My only issue with your political statement about the deficit is that you know as well as I do that the world has changed since 1999 and that there is no way we would have the current budget deficit if not for our security issues. I consider that underhanded.

Originally Posted by Batgeek

By the way why does everyone keep bringing up Dodge when they are talking about US auto manufacturers in Mexico? You guys do know Ford has the largest presence of any auto maker in Mexico?

Originally Posted by mschultz

And by the way- I drove a Dodge's new 6-speed last night. I sure like the Ford ZF 6-speed a lot better than the Mercedes G56. I am totally ignorant of how the G56 is built, but the Ford ZF feels a lot tighter- less noise- more substantial- and a better looking casting without the hairline cracks on the Mercedes unit. And the Dodge clutch had less feel- the range of engagement felt shorter.

This is pure conjecture mind you- I don't know anything about how the G56 is built.

Originally Posted by Snake1979

Good lord this post get off track.

Originally Posted by Batgeek

The whole what American and what's not argument is very strange indeed. From what I'm reading most people's only criteria would be the country of origin of the parent company.

Originally Posted by okst1

Now, look who's calling the pot black.

Like I said, I'll keep my opinion which is based on skepticism-nothing more/nothing less. You can keep yours which is based on irrefutable, investigated, and objectively analyzed information....

Originally Posted by Batgeek

... How can you say with a straight face that anyone or any group is biased towards any automaker because of nationality when there is no such thing as nationality when it come to big global companies.

Originally Posted by mschultz

The "Where the profits go" analysis is much too simplistic to determine which vehicle is or is not American.

These corporations are GLOBAL, not NATIONAL. The profits go to global shareholders in the form of dividends or in the form of increased equity share. If I buy a German / Mexican Dodge and that product generates a profit for D-C, the profits do not "go" to the US or to Germany but rather flow in part to each shareholder - regardless of nationality.

If you want to talk about how to actually benefit the US economy with you truck purchase, you have to engage in a more complex and difficult analysis. For starters, how much of the profit is being re-invested in the country of manufacture? For example, D-C is dumping lots of money into the Mexican truck plant. If I were a Mexican truck buyer, I'd think seriously about buying a Dodge truck (all other things being equal) because the parent company is making huge investments in my economy.

The US truck buyer? Well, if D-C's profits flow to global investors and Mexican plants, maybe buying a Dodge truck doesn't do much of anything to help our economy (aside from the salesman and the dealer who will be fixing that transmission and front end). What about a Toyota? What if Toyota hires a lot of Americans and makes HUGE investments in this country while other companies outsource, claiming that it is too expensive to manufacture here? Perhaps a US patriot my reasonably conclude that his or her truck dollar does the most good for this country by buying a Toyota truck- something people above claim as not "American'.

Let's look at Ford. I am ordering a new truck in the next 4-6 weeks (in order to miss the '07 EGR mess) and I have to choose between Ford and D-C. While trucks have strengths and weaknesses, the Ford is built with US labor and, I hope, by buying a Ford truck there will (in small part) be fewer US job losses. I hope Ford will take that "profit" and reinvest in US manufacturing, research and development.

But in reality, a share of the "profit" from selling a new truck to me will go to shareholders in the form of dividends. (The value of Ford stock continues to dive, do I doubt the shareholders will get any sort of equity value hike for some time to come... if ever) So, do I care if the Ford family and other American and global investors get a few fractions of a penny instead of the Germans and other global investors?

Not really- it is too amorphous to really get your hands around. So I go back to thinking about how to help the US economy with jobs. And that goes back to the KC Light Truck Plant.

I suspect that the reality is that it will become more and more difficult to discern the nationality of most cars in the future. Parts content will be even more mixed, the corporate ownership dispersed and the point of manufacture scattered around the globe.

Times have changed. The old models of thinking of cars as "American" or "Foreign" are close to obsolete. I think instead we should look at the investments these corporations are making in our communities across America. If we care about this nation and this economy, I think we should pay more attention to who is building what here and figuring out ways to encourage them to continue to make capital and labor investments here.

Simply hiding behind the flag and pretending that something is or is not "American" because it was once a US company is simplistic, naive, and detrimental to the very causes the arm-chair-patriot purports to believe in and uphold.

A US flag on the Dodge is not enough to make up for the fact that the buyer chose to support the flow of manufacturing jobs out of the US. The majority shareholders of D-C are not American. Now tell me how buying a Dodge built in Mexico is better for the US economy than a Toyota or Nissan, designed and built in the United States.

In this market, everyone is free to buy whatever he or she wants to buy. But we cannot have it both ways. After a while, you cannot hide behind the flag while failing to invest in the companies making investments in your community. Otherwise all that will remain is Social Security, unemployment, the government and the Bush deficit.

Meanwhile, Consumer Reports will continue compiling and reporting statistics and fools like us will pretend the statistics are biased each time the numbers do not agree with our belief that we just purchased the very best car / truck available.

It is not that the numbers are wrong. It's just that making these purchasing decisions is a lot more complicated that just numbers. Some need a product with greater capacity than offered by other manufactures. Some, like me, have a built in preference for a particular brand because we are familiar with it and it is a know commodity- like a friend. And sometimes we do not like the "type" of people who may typically select another type of product. It is not rational, but even if we had certified proof that GM made the best truck, I would not buy a new one- simply because too many people I do not like drive that truck.

This makes me irrational and a little bit stupid, but it does not mean that people who do buy that truck or publications that report the statistical superiority of another product are biased. It means that it is only part of the story.

Take for example the Consumer Reports section on "exhaust system" problems. Subaru has always fared poorly in this section. And I suspect that Suby parts are pretty cheap- but no cheaper than any other in their market segment. Instead, I suspect that a higher percentage of Subys live in rust belt states where snow and salt are facts of life (4x). So, these cars face more exhaust failures than say, Mazda Miatas that may enjoy a more salt-free life per unit. This does not mean that Consumer Reports has a bias; it just means that statistics tell only part of the story.

Last- if you believe in the free market and you believe that people are by-and-large rational actors, then you have to accept that if more people chose Brand A over Brand B, there is a good reason for it. Ford and GM have both lost market share again. Part of that is due to a shift in consumer preference away from large SUVs. But even with that shift, why is it that these large corporations were placing so much emphasis on this segment rather than reinvesting in better cars and new technology? It seems like a no-brainer to develop a fuel-efficient diesel half-ton and drop it on the US market. Instead, someone else appears ready to beat Ford and GM to that market.

That failure is not Consumer Report's fault. The failure to create and supply new markets is not the result of 3rd party bias. Instead, that is a failure of leadership vision.

For that failure, the market has held Ford and GM accountable (Their shares trade at junk bond status). I believe in the free market and I think that instead of relying on branding, product placement, incentives and technology licensing- GM and Ford should clean corporate house and go back to building market share the old fashioned way- by earning it.

Until then- I'll buy another truck built at the KC Light Truck Plant in part because I want to support the working American- In spite of the failure of Ford's leadership. And if Ford goes under or starts building 11,500 GVW trucks in Mexico, then I will look for a company that is investing and manufacturing in the US. Right now, Toyota and Nissan are making those investments. For them, it looks like "where the profits go" leads back to the US. So much for what is and is not “American”.

-Mike