Starter or Flywheel Mismatch?????
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Starter or Flywheel Mismatch?????
I have a 1978 F-250 4x4 with manual transmission. When I bought the truck it had a bad motor. I pulled that motor to have it rebuilt, the overhaul shop found the case to be too damaged to be rebuilt. They also told me that the engine had originated from a car. After all the money smoke cleared I had a rebuilt 351M truck engine.
Due to time constraints, I had the new engine installed by another shop, they told me that the starter from the prior engine would not work with this motor. (Starter seems to crash into flywheel).
I have since determined that the old starter was indeed for a 400 engine and I bought a starter for a 351M that does show a slight variation, HOWEVER, this starter does not want to fully seat in a position where the bolt holes properly align, or if they do, the starter does not fully seat and also seems to crash into the flywheel.
Does anyone have any similar experience or advice on this matter, all suggestions greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
John
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Due to time constraints, I had the new engine installed by another shop, they told me that the starter from the prior engine would not work with this motor. (Starter seems to crash into flywheel).
I have since determined that the old starter was indeed for a 400 engine and I bought a starter for a 351M that does show a slight variation, HOWEVER, this starter does not want to fully seat in a position where the bolt holes properly align, or if they do, the starter does not fully seat and also seems to crash into the flywheel.
Does anyone have any similar experience or advice on this matter, all suggestions greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
John
(Click Here to find out why email addresses are removed from posts.)
Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Albuquerque
Hi, all 351M/400 starters are exactly the same operationally. No shims were used in production. Flywheels/flex plates would also have been the same diameter/tooth count. If neither starter will work something is wrong with the flywheel.
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Thanks BearTracks,
Originally I was of the same opinion as to the starter and then I found that there are different part numbers for a 400 versus a 351M. I went to the parts store and physically compared them. The 351M starter drive gear sits deeper in the starter housing than the one for the 400.
I am also very suspicous of the flywheel, but was hopefule there might be some other thing I have overlooked.
Do you know if there is any way to change out the flywheel without pulling the motor or transmission?
Originally I was of the same opinion as to the starter and then I found that there are different part numbers for a 400 versus a 351M. I went to the parts store and physically compared them. The 351M starter drive gear sits deeper in the starter housing than the one for the 400.
I am also very suspicous of the flywheel, but was hopefule there might be some other thing I have overlooked.
Do you know if there is any way to change out the flywheel without pulling the motor or transmission?
Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Albuquerque
I can't imagine why there would be any difference in the starters as the blocks are exactly the same. I'm not familiar with the manual flywheels but you've got to pull the tranny to get it out.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Montana Territory
This is most interesting.... I sell auto parts for a living... and I've never seen a different part number for the 400 and 351M starters... even the 460 uses the same starter, regardless of a manual or automatic tranny.
The parts store is showing you a starter for a 400 and a 351W which do have different starters, and a 351W starter will NOT bolt to your bellhousing. There are different starters for manual and automatic trannies in the 351W starter. I believe the 351C uses the same starter as the 351W, due to the same bellhousing.
The parts store is showing you a starter for a 400 and a 351W which do have different starters, and a 351W starter will NOT bolt to your bellhousing. There are different starters for manual and automatic trannies in the 351W starter. I believe the 351C uses the same starter as the 351W, due to the same bellhousing.
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Matt,
Thanks for that info, when I asked the people at the parts store, they were adamant that there was a difference between the 351M and the 400, so that is why I asked to see the two for a side by side comparison.
<O
</O
The biggest problem that I had going into this is in not really knowing exactly what the motor was that came out of the truck.<O</O
<O</O
In reading on other posts it has been said that there is also not a major difference between the blocks on the 400 motors which go into the cars or the trucks. If that is the case, shouldn't the starter that was already in the truck fit this 351M motor?<O</O
Thanks for that info, when I asked the people at the parts store, they were adamant that there was a difference between the 351M and the 400, so that is why I asked to see the two for a side by side comparison.
<O
</O The biggest problem that I had going into this is in not really knowing exactly what the motor was that came out of the truck.<O
</O<O
</OIn reading on other posts it has been said that there is also not a major difference between the blocks on the 400 motors which go into the cars or the trucks. If that is the case, shouldn't the starter that was already in the truck fit this 351M motor?<O
</O
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Montana Territory
No there isn't...cars, trucks, 351M 400.... all the same...
There was a very rare 400 with a small block ford pattern in 1973 only, you probably won't ever see one though.
If you can somehow prove that there is a different starter, I'll buy you the right one and send it to your house. I'm that sure of it.
There was a very rare 400 with a small block ford pattern in 1973 only, you probably won't ever see one though.
If you can somehow prove that there is a different starter, I'll buy you the right one and send it to your house. I'm that sure of it.
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This has gotten a bit astray from the goal here. I am not trying to prove anything, the basic facts are:
1. The engine that was in the truck went bad and was replaced.<O</O
2. The shop that installed the new engine said that the current starter would not work with the 351M which was now installed.<O</O
3. When I went to the auto parts store, they supposedly sold me a starter for a 351M, it appeared to be exactly the same as the one I already had, except that the starter gear was deeper in the housing when parked.<O</O
4. The old starter appeared totally identical in every way to the one that they had for a 400.<O</O
5. I installed the new starter and it does not work, making a grinding noise as if crashing into the flywheel. That is exactly what the old one did.<O</O
It is possible that the starter that the auto parts store sold me appears slightly different because it was mis-boxed. I am going to pull the starter and go back and check it against other stock.<O</O
<O</O
My question is: Is there anything else that should be checked or taken in to consideration?<O</O
<O</O
To the people who have written on this post, I do appreciate your taking the time to respond and do not want to come off as any sort of argumentative D***H****, this is just extremely frustrating when there is no clear problem to solve.<O</O
1. The engine that was in the truck went bad and was replaced.<O
</O2. The shop that installed the new engine said that the current starter would not work with the 351M which was now installed.<O
</O3. When I went to the auto parts store, they supposedly sold me a starter for a 351M, it appeared to be exactly the same as the one I already had, except that the starter gear was deeper in the housing when parked.<O
</O4. The old starter appeared totally identical in every way to the one that they had for a 400.<O
</O5. I installed the new starter and it does not work, making a grinding noise as if crashing into the flywheel. That is exactly what the old one did.<O
</OIt is possible that the starter that the auto parts store sold me appears slightly different because it was mis-boxed. I am going to pull the starter and go back and check it against other stock.<O
</O<O
</OMy question is: Is there anything else that should be checked or taken in to consideration?<O
</O<O
</OTo the people who have written on this post, I do appreciate your taking the time to respond and do not want to come off as any sort of argumentative D***H****, this is just extremely frustrating when there is no clear problem to solve.<O
</O
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Senior User
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Hephzibah Ga
I had something similar to this happen when i took the 351m out of my 78 250 4x4 and put a 460 in it. I tried to use the engine rear plate off an automatic trasmission instead of the one for my manual transmission and it would not give my starter enough room to get past the flywheel to bolt it up.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,323
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From: Montana Territory
Thats a possibility too... the spacer plate might have been bent or shifted...
I looked up the part numbers today for the starters, 351M/400/429/460 use a Westling 72-0150...302/351W use a Westling 72-0162 for autos and 72-0164 for manual trannies. When I looked up the application, and put 351 in, my computer only showed the M starter in Westling, but in Wilson it showed 4 different 351 starters (M,C,W (atx & mtx))
I'm not trying to make you angry or prove anything, I'm trying to help you. I sell auto parts all day long, and I've got 9 ford trucks from 67-79, and believe it or not, I know a thing or two.
I looked up the part numbers today for the starters, 351M/400/429/460 use a Westling 72-0150...302/351W use a Westling 72-0162 for autos and 72-0164 for manual trannies. When I looked up the application, and put 351 in, my computer only showed the M starter in Westling, but in Wilson it showed 4 different 351 starters (M,C,W (atx & mtx))
I'm not trying to make you angry or prove anything, I'm trying to help you. I sell auto parts all day long, and I've got 9 ford trucks from 67-79, and believe it or not, I know a thing or two.
Freshman User
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: illinois
i agree with matts72. i sell autoparts also here is my idea. for one count the teeth on th ring gear. it should have 180 teeth just to check that. 351w some had 164. that plate in between the bellhousing and engine is a specified thickness. auto parts store do sell a shim that bolts in between the starter and the mating plate between the bellhousing and the engine. for one if that is the wrong plate the addition of the shim might help. also if it is the wrong starter the shim will space it out some. if we find out what is correct on this truck that will piont us to what is not.i have came across some employees of auto parts stores who were just misinformed about fords. what parts fit what and what is different.maybe one of the starters was off a 351w that they got you to look at. who knows.lets make sure the ring gear is correct before you pull things apart just to cover all avenues.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,323
Likes: 2
From: Montana Territory
sometimes your ring gear/flexplate is so damaged that you will never find a starter that fits like the old one. I've only seen this on a 300-6 where the main bearings were shot and the crank would walk, moving the whole flywheel/ring gear. I warrantied 3 starters which lasted 3 weeks each before I noticed what had been going on.
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Thanks for the information, I was searching trying to find the number of teeth of any flywheel that would fit on this motor when you guys posted your replies, so that does help.<O</O
The flywheel does not appear to be damaged in any way, I am going to pull the starter tomorrow and check the backing plate and count the teeth on the flywheel.<O</O
<O</O
Matt,
<O</O
Don't worry about trying to make me mad, my frustration was/is not directed toward you in any way, it is with having a problem that should be so simple, yet is not. PS. I like your logo, the band I play in does a lot of AC/DC
<O</O
On the bright side, this might be just the motivation I need to pull the transmission and go ahead with a conversion to an automatic transmission. That is something I have been debating for some time.<O</O
<O</O
Again,<O</O
<O</O
Thanks<O</O
</OThe flywheel does not appear to be damaged in any way, I am going to pull the starter tomorrow and check the backing plate and count the teeth on the flywheel.<O
</O<O
</OMatt,
<O
</ODon't worry about trying to make me mad, my frustration was/is not directed toward you in any way, it is with having a problem that should be so simple, yet is not. PS. I like your logo, the band I play in does a lot of AC/DC
<O
</OOn the bright side, this might be just the motivation I need to pull the transmission and go ahead with a conversion to an automatic transmission. That is something I have been debating for some time.<O
</O<O
</OAgain,<O
</O<O
</OThanks<O
</O
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Well the dilemna is now over............
There turned out to be a few different things causing the problem.
1. The starter which the parts guy swore was for a 351M, was in fact for a 302. I found this out by bringing the starter I had bought to a different parts store and checking the starters they had and determined that. Then went to where I bought it and exchanged it for the right one.
2. The plate that goes between the motor and bellhousing was not properly aligned when the engine was installed. The plate was cout out in the area of the starter, except a small portion of it came in contact with just the top of the starter. I cut that part back and installed a ford specific shim plate and that did it.
Thanks to Matt and all who took the time to give advice....
John
There turned out to be a few different things causing the problem.
1. The starter which the parts guy swore was for a 351M, was in fact for a 302. I found this out by bringing the starter I had bought to a different parts store and checking the starters they had and determined that. Then went to where I bought it and exchanged it for the right one.
2. The plate that goes between the motor and bellhousing was not properly aligned when the engine was installed. The plate was cout out in the area of the starter, except a small portion of it came in contact with just the top of the starter. I cut that part back and installed a ford specific shim plate and that did it.
Thanks to Matt and all who took the time to give advice....
John
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