Lift/Alignment question
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From: Destin/Ft. Walton Beach,
Hmmmm. I don't think so MatthewC. The tires don't change the alignment. The big tires and wheels may not work on the alignment rack though. The only thing that can change the alignment once it's set, is more or less weight being put on the springs. The tires and wheels are UNSPRUNG weight. The height of the tire and rim does not change the actual alignment either. Only when you change the position of the TT arm in relationship to the frame, does the alignment change. Bigger tires don't do that either.
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From: Fredericton NB, Canada
Agreed. The heighth of the tire does not make a difference. What I believe makes a difference though is the width. Hey, I may be wrong, but for example, if you have a body lift, then go from p245's to 33X12.50's without an alignment the tires will wear improperly, and the ride will not be centered. A good debate.
Anyone else?
-Matt. (The most boring login name in the forum)
Anyone else?
-Matt. (The most boring login name in the forum)
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From: Destin/Ft. Walton Beach,
OK all. Think about this. Take the tires off completely. Somehow prop up the front end and rear end so that the full weight of the truck is on the suspension. The alignment of the truck is still going to be the same whether there are tires and rims on it or not. The alignment is the position of the front tire mounting area (and rear in a 4 wheel alignment) in relationship to the frame of the vehicle. This distance does not change with the height or width of the tire. The center of the disc or drum is always in the same position relative to the frame unless the suspension itself has a force acted on it, or a suspension lift or drop is performed, or a suspension part gets worn or bent. That is the only way the alignment is changed. The height or width of the tire doesn't change anything, except for the footprint of the tire, or raise the centerline of the wheels off the ground more. If the wheel has more of an offset, this does not change the alignment either. It just increase the forces acting on the suspension and steering movement.
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From: Oromocto NB
Not true. The wider rims and larger tires will put more leverage on the spindles and greater force on the springs thus changing the camber, fact!
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From: Destin/Ft. Walton Beach,
NOT FACT, if the back spacing has not been changed. Do you know anything about physics? Also, I stated that the alighment will change if the suspension is acted upon by an outside force. (i.e. a wheel with a different back spacing) The weight of the tire puts zero leverage on the spindle. The spindle is resting on the rim, not the rim resting on the spindle. It's called gravity. The weight of the larger tire is being held up by the ground. If the backspacing of the rim is the same as when the front end was aligned, the tire can be a foot wider and a foot taller, with no change to alignment (not that a tire that big would fit).
Last edited by stevef100s; Aug 12, 2004 at 10:53 PM.
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From: Oromocto NB
No you said "If the wheel has more of an offset, this does not change the alignment either." And I say yes it does it effects camber and now your saying it does!
I know about alignments, come on over I'll show you the differance on the lignment rack. And I never said anything about tire weight, talking about size. larger foot print more leverage, tall height more leverage and off course wheel off set. Weight would only have an effect while going down the road and than physics plays a whole new game. But don't take my word for it, get yourself on the rack and see for yourself. Physics on paper and physics in the real world are 2 differant things, I live in the real world and talk is cheap, I can show it and I can prove it. Of couse this is TTB front end we are talking about where just looking at it makes the camber change.
I know about alignments, come on over I'll show you the differance on the lignment rack. And I never said anything about tire weight, talking about size. larger foot print more leverage, tall height more leverage and off course wheel off set. Weight would only have an effect while going down the road and than physics plays a whole new game. But don't take my word for it, get yourself on the rack and see for yourself. Physics on paper and physics in the real world are 2 differant things, I live in the real world and talk is cheap, I can show it and I can prove it. Of couse this is TTB front end we are talking about where just looking at it makes the camber change.
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From: Oromocto NB
You would also have to have camber set at zero on both sides (good luck) for taller wider tires not to effect the camber. Or run a straight axle. 
As it is with these TTB the alignment is never perfect, and never will be. Camber is changing as you drive down the road, and its ussally aligned to "well thats about as good as it gets."
As it is with these TTB the alignment is never perfect, and never will be. Camber is changing as you drive down the road, and its ussally aligned to "well thats about as good as it gets."
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From: Destin/Ft. Walton Beach,
[QUOTE]If the wheel has more of an offset, this does not change the alignment either. It just increase the forces acting on the suspension and steering movement.
What I should have said, is that the offset wheel does not in itself change the camber. And I still maintain that wider tires and wheels will not change the camber or caster, while sitting still on the alignment rack. This was the original question, is it not?
Even if the camber is not exactly zero, the size of the tire or rim will not change the camber while the vehicle is sitting still. The effects of a wheel offset change would also be very minimal while the vehicle is at rest. Physics in the real world is exactly what I've been basing my statements on. I too know my way around an alignment rack. Of course they've come a long ways since the stone age, when I did my first one. (1978) I can see that we're just going to have ti agree to disagree. I know what I know and you know what I know, and I only have the laws of physics and my experience to back me up. lol.
What I should have said, is that the offset wheel does not in itself change the camber. And I still maintain that wider tires and wheels will not change the camber or caster, while sitting still on the alignment rack. This was the original question, is it not?
Even if the camber is not exactly zero, the size of the tire or rim will not change the camber while the vehicle is sitting still. The effects of a wheel offset change would also be very minimal while the vehicle is at rest. Physics in the real world is exactly what I've been basing my statements on. I too know my way around an alignment rack. Of course they've come a long ways since the stone age, when I did my first one. (1978) I can see that we're just going to have ti agree to disagree. I know what I know and you know what I know, and I only have the laws of physics and my experience to back me up. lol.
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From: GANS
[QUOTE=stevef100s]
The angle of the camber does not change.. the angle of the tire hitting the road changes, which requires less camber, hence needs an alignment ie requiring less camber than the manufacture requests.
I have the laws of triganomity on my side. on a right triangle, if the angle doesn't change (the camber) and the hypontenose (tire height) gets longer, the opposite side (how far the tire sits under the truck) gets longer as well.
think about it.. if you don't understand, I'll draw a picture...
If the wheel has more of an offset, this does not change the alignment either. It just increase the forces acting on the suspension and steering movement.
What I should have said, is that the offset wheel does not in itself change the camber. And I still maintain that wider tires and wheels will not change the camber or caster, while sitting still on the alignment rack. This was the original question, is it not?
Even if the camber is not exactly zero, the size of the tire or rim will not change the camber while the vehicle is sitting still. The effects of a wheel offset change would also be very minimal while the vehicle is at rest. Physics in the real world is exactly what I've been basing my statements on. I too know my way around an alignment rack. Of course they've come a long ways since the stone age, when I did my first one. (1978) I can see that we're just going to have ti agree to disagree. I know what I know and you know what I know, and I only have the laws of physics and my experience to back me up. lol.
What I should have said, is that the offset wheel does not in itself change the camber. And I still maintain that wider tires and wheels will not change the camber or caster, while sitting still on the alignment rack. This was the original question, is it not?
Even if the camber is not exactly zero, the size of the tire or rim will not change the camber while the vehicle is sitting still. The effects of a wheel offset change would also be very minimal while the vehicle is at rest. Physics in the real world is exactly what I've been basing my statements on. I too know my way around an alignment rack. Of course they've come a long ways since the stone age, when I did my first one. (1978) I can see that we're just going to have ti agree to disagree. I know what I know and you know what I know, and I only have the laws of physics and my experience to back me up. lol.
I have the laws of triganomity on my side. on a right triangle, if the angle doesn't change (the camber) and the hypontenose (tire height) gets longer, the opposite side (how far the tire sits under the truck) gets longer as well.
think about it.. if you don't understand, I'll draw a picture...
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From: Oromocto NB
I agree with Bremen242, basically this is what I'm saying except that becasue the tire is wider and tall and we have some degree of camber the outer edge of the tire will have a leverage effect on the suspension, if anything it'll bring the tire and wheels to a zero camber and thats a good thing. But oh yes there is a but. When camber changes on the TTB frontend so does "toe". Yeah its a screwed up suspension for sure go driving around and your camber goes in and and out and so does your toe, no wonder its hard to keep a set of tires on the front end. lol Anyway I can show all of these on the alignment rack, It’s a measurable difference perhaps not in the stone age but with todays technology I can show the differance.
Anyway anyone that buys new tires and larger tires and doesn't get an alignment anyways is just asking for trouble.
Anyway anyone that buys new tires and larger tires and doesn't get an alignment anyways is just asking for trouble.