Not even a good joke.

 

I am the one who made the post that ktmguy70 is referring to. And it's true, a little while back, someone did in fact post a poll on the DieselStop which asked current Super Duty diesel owners this question; "If you could have either a Duramax, Cummins, or Powerstroke engine come in your SD truck straight from the factory, which one would you choose?" After many responses the poll went in favor of the Cummins by a vote of 64%. This poll does not exist any longer- the thread had been locked, and the whole post has since been scuttled by the mods over there. Don't shoot the messenger, I do not own a Super Duty with diesel engine, if you have a gripe over this - go take it out on the guys who bought a Powerstroke but would rather their truck had came with a Cummins.

Here are a few facts as I know them, which may or may not be open to rebuttal;

The Cummins ISB did force the competition to quit using IDI technology in favor of direct injection. It also forced them to start turbo charging their engines for better performance. Both these differences made the Cummins far
superior to it's competition when it debued and up until the time that these advantages were also applied to the competition.

Here are the facts which are undisputable;

The Cummins IS the benchmark in terms of reliability, longevity, and upgradablity. Ford outsells Dodge - no question. There are more Powerstroke diesels working everyday, than there are Cummins diesels working everyday.
Guess what? It dos'ent matter! In the early 90's Ford diesels outsold Dodge diesels also - and by a far greater margin than they do now, but who here really believes that a 6.9 or 7.3 naturally aspirated IDI Ford diesel could hold it's own (performance wise) against a CTD of the same era? The point? Sales aren't everything.....

The "issues" the Cummins has/is having, and those of the 6.0L are not even close. Many would like to point fingers and say, "See, we all have problems!".
To believe that Cummins owners go through anything even REMOTELY close to what a lot of 6.0L PSD owners have been through is nothing more than desperate wishful thinking. The single biggest factor has been the fuel pump failing - and it is not all that common for this to happen, it can sometimes be attributed to using the wrong fuels too often or use of too much winter fuel conditioner. Without proper lubrication the bearings will burn up.

The biggest advantage to the Cummins is design. A simpler and stronger design base reflects a more reliable and more efficient product. Inline designs offer far more natural balance and more structural integrity than V-8's do.
Besides having larger and better balanced internals, the Cummins has approximately 30% fewer parts which could possibly go wrong. This "mere" 30% parts reduction represents hundreds of parts and how these parts have to work together within the design system. 2 fewer cylinders, 8 fewer valves, no glow plugs, simpler intake, fewer turbo connections, one less exhaust manifold, one less intake manifold, no balancing issues between two exhaust manifolds and the turbocharger, or between the intercooler and two intake manifolds, etc, etc, the list goes on, these are but a few of the major differences between I-6 and V-8 designs.

Then theres all the emissions stuff which serves to further widen the gap between the Cummins and current V-8 diesels in terms of simplicity. Variable geometry turbochargers, EGR valves and electronic sensors and systems monitors for both these systems, go a long way to even further complicate these engines. The Cummins uses none of this. What is amazing is that these newer "high tech" V-8 diesels needed EGR to make emissions certification, while the "ancient" and "dated" Cummins did not.

The Cummins has had a few updates yes, an upgraded turbocharger, electronically controlled wastegate,upgraded exhaust valves, different air intake, upgraded intercooler, and a few other minor tweaks - mostly for the sake of emissions. It IS STILL the same BASIC motor which debued in 1989' and one which has been going strong ever since.

There seems to be an attitude in Ford's engineering and marketing departments. They have the best overall truck - and they know it. They have grown too complacent with certain products because of this IMO. Being the leader in diesel sales since forever may have been a contributing factor in what has been a lacadasical attitude with regard to this engine - both prior to introduction, and during it's subsequent problems. The 6.0 PSD and it's reputation have suffered because of this. How far along this engine has come in terms of true reliability not even Ford knows. As with anything it will take some time to really know for sure. The problem is - it already has a reputation. It's already served to cause would be buyers to become familiar with other manufacturers products. It is one thing to chance a new and unknown product because of good experiences with past products from a manufacturer, it's another entirely to be willing to invest 30,000.00+ from the start, to be one of the consumers who helps the R&D department on an engine with known problems.

IF I were to buy a diesel AND it had to be a V-8, I'd either go looking around for a nice low miles SD with 7.3 PSD/6 speed, or I'd buy a new Duramax/ 6speed. Either of these trucks would suit me, and a killer deal on a used 7.3L (not likely) would most likely be too much too resist - even as much as I like the Cummins.

Don't get me wrong guys - I WANT the 6.0 to work out. It has to eventually.
But even when it does, that won't mean it's the "best." For the reasons I've stated, I feel that title still goes to the Cummins. As of right now - it's not even close - power (which the Cummins can certainly make a TON of) is definately not everything.

Say what you wish of the Dodge trucks -past or present for that matter, and while I do like them and trust them, I do agree the SD is the better truck, but to me it's a real close call. Cummins tips the balance by a wide margin in my opinion however. Cummins has always made an impression upon me. They are extremely hard working engines which incoporate many advantages because of being an inline 6 cylinder design.

JMHO.

 

Still not believing it's a benchmark, I believe that the 7.3 (PSD) outperformed the Cummins. I think that Ford is more trying to build a better 7.3 with the 6.0 more than taking any cue from Cummins.

 

Everyone keeps saying how the cummins has bigger internal parts.Well it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out, guess what the pistons are bigger too.You cannot compare the parts of a inline 6 to those of a v8.With almost the same displacement the inline 6 has to deal with the same preasure as a v8 design with two less cylinders.This is why all the internals are bigger,with equal parts they would have to hook the grill externaly to the fan so the motor would fit.

 

Ford really started there diesel reputation with the advent of the 6.9. People were so impresed about with it the durability and longevity of that motor that there reputation was set for life. This is way before the cummins came out in the dodge. Goodness sake some of those motors are still running yet. The dura max has some issues too they are not perfect. Dodge has the cummins thats about all they have the rest of the truck is not as good of quality as the motor. People know this sales numbers prove it.

 

The Cummins is not a benchmark and anyone who thinks that is misinformed. Why would anyone use a model that they already outsell by more than 2x?

 

1. it offers more torque,

2. Its got Proven reliability

3. Its Highly regarded in the workforce AND by tuners alike

4. When 64% of Ford owners on a diesel forum say THEY want a Cummins in their ford over the super duty???? (although this would have no bearing on anything Ford does)

5. The Cummins spends most of its time out of the shop and DSB cases.

 

So 64% on a deisel forum say they want one, well someone call Ford.
Also put me down as not wanting a cummins in my super duty.

 

If someone told you that you could trade your PSD in for an engine that gets better fuel economy, produces more power, will stay out of the shop longer, and will cost less....you wouldn't take it?? Are you nuts?

 

The trouble is the engine wont be in the shop to have anything done with it. But the truck will for a transmission problem or a chassis problem or who noes. Does 3yrs/36000 mile for for chevy and ford and 7yrs/70000 miles for dodge tell you something. It tells me people have had problems in the past and the reputation of the truck is bad. Im looking for the complete truck. Ford has it and dodge doesn't.

 

have u been on any dodge forums lately? the cummins isnt exactly the pinacle of reliability at this moment. and i have seen more than one complaint about single digit mpg figures with this new engine. not to mention the starting problems when cold...the engine stall...the burned up turbos....the fuel pump problem.....


i hear all the time how we ford loyalists are "blind" and "brand loyal". maybe so, but all of u cummins guys need to follow ur own advice. i dont care how reliable the engine has been in the past. that doesnt change the issues with it now.

and before anyone says a thing...the issues with the stroker are well known and are not the topic here. i will be the first to admit that the 6.0 has issues as well...none the less, the cummins is having problems too. dont be so quick to say its a better engine, cuz right now its not....in my opinion anyway.

 

Fords the target ,fords the benchmark, fords the one to measure up too. When ford has a problem everybody knows about it. Its like being number 1 in any sport. There is a target on your head. Everybody does everything in there power to knock you off the top. As far as cars go Ford will be way ahead of toyota in car sales this fall with the introduction of there new models. So long toyota the party is over.

 

Cummins isn't highly regarded as anything around here, by workforce or tuners either one. Also, I'm in the market for a SD right now, and you can count me as one that does NOT want a Cummins in my truck.

 

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Dodge's 47RE has been known to have problems - no doubt, the 48RE so far is holding up rather well, but most of these newer automatic transmissions have only 30,000 miles or less on them. 30,000 miles does not make a 48RE transmission reliable in my book, just as it does not make a 6.0 PSD reliable either - as far as I'm concerned.

Ford's 4R100 has been better overall so far, but it's had problems as well.

The strongest transmission available in any pickup truck today is found only behind the Dodge Cummins diesel. That would be the New Venture 5600 six speed manual. Weighing almost 400lbs, it uses gear oil in a cast iron case.
Ford and GM both opted for the more complicated ZF six speed instead because of a weight savings of 180lbs.

7 years / 70,000 miles might tell you Dodge is unreliable, it tells me two things;

1.) They want to offer something the competition does not for advertising purposes.

2.) They believe in their product enough to be able to advertise this advantage.

Two more points gentlemen; a little while ago, Ford went out of their way to take a poke at Dodge with their new F150's towing capability. Dodge slapped them around good on the issue and proved them wrong 280 times in a row.
Hype is hype - they all throw out hype, it was just Ford's misfortune that D/C decided to call them on this particular issue - it was an embarrassment to say the least..Ford has'int poked them since then that I'm aware of.

Second point, awhile back (97'-98'), Ford was knowingly (they acknowledged this) installing faulty factory gaskets in their 4.2L engines. These gaskets led to many destroyed engines just outside the limits of the factory warranty (talk about disposable trucks), I'm sure there are many Ford owners, who would have been greatly relieved to not have to spend 4,600.00 (block core charge included) for a replacement engine on a truck which was still being paid for. A 7 yr/70,000 mile warranty would have given much relief I'm sure.

Everyone has problems - this we all know, but somehow Ford is the only one which has "good excuses" for their problems according to some of you. This inspite of the fact that the 6.0 has been nothing BUT problems until just recently, and in all honesty guys- it's still not worked out. The Cummins is a fine powerplant. The MPG problems you hear of them come from owners who want to get 20+ MPG with an 8000lb truck. It is'int happening with todays emissions criteria. The fuel pump has MOSTLY been an issue on trucks which have been run on improper fuel mixtures which do not provide enough lubrication. I have heard a few cases of intermitent power loss around 2000 RPM's - this is not a common problem, there were a few cases of faulty injectors, and all six end up being replaced with new ones (unlike Ford who will only replace one at a time - knowing they are all faulty). I have heard nothing of cold start issues, or engine stall. Simply acknowledging problems with the 6.0, and then pointing to the Cummins' problems as a retort - does not acknowledge anything in reality. It's the same thing as saying, " It's normal, we all have issues ", when the reality of the matter is - the issues between these two engines have not even been close.

JMHO.

 

The Cummins isn't exactly new or anywhere near as technologically advanced as the 6.0, either. Sure, there's less to go wrong, but when the 6.0 gets working the way it was designed, then the Cummins will be no competition.