Quote Bush:
Postmaster
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Calgary Canada
Originally posted by haulingboat
The point of this whole thing Waxy is to revamp a program that is very inefficent and stop the abuse. Where did we lose you?
The point of this whole thing Waxy is to revamp a program that is very inefficent and stop the abuse. Where did we lose you?
If you state that you can't be certain that charities won't be every bit as corrupt and arbitrary as the government, then what's the point of transfering everything to charities?
Waxy
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From: Calgary Canada
Originally posted by haulingboat
We have found the point of contention. You believe there is no hope. No solution to the problem. I believe there is and albeit not perfect it is a vast improvemnet over the current state of affairs.
We have found the point of contention. You believe there is no hope. No solution to the problem. I believe there is and albeit not perfect it is a vast improvemnet over the current state of affairs.
Did we ever agree on the level of abuse in the current system? I agree that there is some, but is it so widespread that the system needs to be completely overhauled? I don't believe so.
But if does need to be reworked, do we design a system that catches 100% of those in need and in return lets some abusers through? Or do we design a system that screens out 100% of the abusers and lets some of those in need go without the neccessary assistance?
But if does need to be reworked, do we design a system that catches 100% of those in need and in return lets some abusers through? Or do we design a system that screens out 100% of the abusers and lets some of those in need go without the neccessary assistance?
I did not say there was no hope for improvement, but I believe there is no PRACTICAL solution.
I haven't seen you demonstrate that your system would be an improvement over the current system.
Waxy
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I am still waiting on a clear demarcation between abuse and acceptable use of social services.
Haulingboat, without this information it wouldn't matter if the government, private charities, aliens or God (don't even get started!) ran social services. Nobody would be able to stop the abuse. Nobody. Nobody.
Earlier you said let the individual charity determine what legitimate needs are. I would fear that abuse stemming from that far more than I fear a few leeches living off our largesse.
Whistler
Haulingboat, without this information it wouldn't matter if the government, private charities, aliens or God (don't even get started!) ran social services. Nobody would be able to stop the abuse. Nobody. Nobody.
Earlier you said let the individual charity determine what legitimate needs are. I would fear that abuse stemming from that far more than I fear a few leeches living off our largesse.
Whistler
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Spring, Texas
Originally posted by whistler
I left out a question: Do you think they could help everybody in the country if asked?
Of course the answer is no. They would have to hold a fund-raiser. I would hate for my fate to be determined on whether the hospital sells enough magazine subscriptions.
I also left out another question: Do people not pass the application process? If so, why? What if there was no application process to weed out certain people? What if they had to be treated no matter what?
Whistler
I left out a question: Do you think they could help everybody in the country if asked?
Of course the answer is no. They would have to hold a fund-raiser. I would hate for my fate to be determined on whether the hospital sells enough magazine subscriptions.
I also left out another question: Do people not pass the application process? If so, why? What if there was no application process to weed out certain people? What if they had to be treated no matter what?
Whistler
Who said anything about a hospital selling magizines?
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Los Angeles safe and warm
Were not these programs put in place because it was already demonstrated that charitable organizations alone could handle the numbers of "needy"? I always thought so.
I'm unconvinced about the level of abuse. I'm always hearing illegals and ghetto dwellers are all on welfare for life, teaching their kids to cheat. I'd like to see some proof.
I'm unconvinced about the level of abuse. I'm always hearing illegals and ghetto dwellers are all on welfare for life, teaching their kids to cheat. I'd like to see some proof.
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Could the national cancer foundation help every cancer patient in the United States if they asked for it?
That is the question. I'm sorry that I have not been exceedingly clear about this.
Of course the answer is: no. According to your earlier suggestion the National Cancer Foundation would have to hold fundraiser ala Toys for Tots. Hence the joke about selling magazines subscriptions as a fundraiser, perhaps I should have said 'bake sale'. Maybe that would have been clearer.
Whistler
PS Over and out for the day. Have a good one.
That is the question. I'm sorry that I have not been exceedingly clear about this.
Of course the answer is: no. According to your earlier suggestion the National Cancer Foundation would have to hold fundraiser ala Toys for Tots. Hence the joke about selling magazines subscriptions as a fundraiser, perhaps I should have said 'bake sale'. Maybe that would have been clearer.
Whistler
PS Over and out for the day. Have a good one.
Last edited by whistler; Dec 16, 2003 at 04:25 PM.
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 723
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From: Spring, Texas
Originally posted by whistler
I am still waiting on a clear demarcation between abuse and acceptable use of social services.
Haulingboat, without this information it wouldn't matter if the government, private charities, aliens or God (don't even get started!) ran social services. Nobody would be able to stop the abuse. Nobody. Nobody.
Earlier you said let the individual charity determine what legitimate needs are. I would fear that abuse stemming from that far more than I fear a few leeches living off our largesse.
Whistler
I am still waiting on a clear demarcation between abuse and acceptable use of social services.
Haulingboat, without this information it wouldn't matter if the government, private charities, aliens or God (don't even get started!) ran social services. Nobody would be able to stop the abuse. Nobody. Nobody.
Earlier you said let the individual charity determine what legitimate needs are. I would fear that abuse stemming from that far more than I fear a few leeches living off our largesse.
Whistler
Here comes a clear demarcation.
Worthy of chartity
An individual with severe Downsyndrome that has no hope of holding a job that pays well enough to pay for the basic essentials.
Abusers
An indivdual that has perfect health and enough skills to hold down a job that will support his or her family, yet chooses to collect welfare because they know how to cheat the system.
I can not speak for your parts of the country or Canada. Just as you can not speak for mine. I have not fabricated this issue in my head. Therefore I ask for a little bit of trust in me, on your part, that this problem exists in disgusting quantities. The example I posts earlier is one of many that I have experienced on many occations.
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Gone but not forgotten.
Joined: Jul 2001
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Quote: Most government workers could not make it in the real world...
That is an absurd statement. I have worked with many government workers and have found them to be highly skilled and proficient producers (example, air traffic controllers and Corps of Engineers). You paint with a broad brush.
Dono
That is an absurd statement. I have worked with many government workers and have found them to be highly skilled and proficient producers (example, air traffic controllers and Corps of Engineers). You paint with a broad brush.
Dono
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 723
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From: Spring, Texas
Originally posted by whistler
Could the national cancer foundation help every cancer patient in the United States if they asked for it?
That is the question. I'm sorry that I have not been exceedingly clear about this.
Of course the answer is: no. According to your earlier suggestion the National Cancer Foundation would have to hold fundraiser ala Toys for Tots. Hence the joke about selling magazines subscriptions as a fundraiser, perhaps I should have said 'bake sale'. Maybe that would have been clearer.
Whistler
PS Over and out for the day. Have a good one.
Could the national cancer foundation help every cancer patient in the United States if they asked for it?
That is the question. I'm sorry that I have not been exceedingly clear about this.
Of course the answer is: no. According to your earlier suggestion the National Cancer Foundation would have to hold fundraiser ala Toys for Tots. Hence the joke about selling magazines subscriptions as a fundraiser, perhaps I should have said 'bake sale'. Maybe that would have been clearer.
Whistler
PS Over and out for the day. Have a good one.
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 723
Likes: 1
From: Spring, Texas
Originally posted by dono
Quote: Most government workers could not make it in the real world...
That is an absurd statement. I have worked with many government workers and have found them to be highly skilled and proficient producers (example, air traffic controllers and Corps of Engineers). You paint with a broad brush.
Dono
Quote: Most government workers could not make it in the real world...
That is an absurd statement. I have worked with many government workers and have found them to be highly skilled and proficient producers (example, air traffic controllers and Corps of Engineers). You paint with a broad brush.
Dono
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 723
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From: Spring, Texas
Originally posted by Waxy
[B]HerbertKornfeld nailed my answer to this one.
Where do you draw the line, is one innocent life worth two abusers, 10, 100, 10,000? I believe the current system does work at an acceptable level, like I said, I have never witnessed the level of abuse that you seem to think is the norm.
I did not say there was no hope for improvement, but I believe there is no PRACTICAL solution.
I haven't seen you demonstrate that your system would be an improvement over the current system.
Waxy
[B]HerbertKornfeld nailed my answer to this one.
Where do you draw the line, is one innocent life worth two abusers, 10, 100, 10,000? I believe the current system does work at an acceptable level, like I said, I have never witnessed the level of abuse that you seem to think is the norm.
I did not say there was no hope for improvement, but I believe there is no PRACTICAL solution.
I haven't seen you demonstrate that your system would be an improvement over the current system.
Waxy
Postmaster
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From: Calgary Canada
Originally posted by haulingboat
No PRACTICAL solution so lets not touch anything and continue on with the current flawed system. Thats were you stand right?
No PRACTICAL solution so lets not touch anything and continue on with the current flawed system. Thats were you stand right?
There will always be those that are "losers in life", no matter what we do. We can enforce the laws already on the books and do our best to curb abuse. We need to start addressing the root problems - economy, poverty, social problems (education, addictions, etc) More proactive help, helping people to help themselves, is the answer IMHO. That being said, not everyone can be helped, and not everyone wants to be helped.
We'll never prevent abuse.
We'll never prevent abuse.
Waxy
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 723
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From: Spring, Texas
Originally posted by sinjin
Were not these programs put in place because it was already demonstrated that charitable organizations alone could handle the numbers of "needy"? I always thought so.
I'm unconvinced about the level of abuse. I'm always hearing illegals and ghetto dwellers are all on welfare for life, teaching their kids to cheat. I'd like to see some proof.
Were not these programs put in place because it was already demonstrated that charitable organizations alone could handle the numbers of "needy"? I always thought so.
I'm unconvinced about the level of abuse. I'm always hearing illegals and ghetto dwellers are all on welfare for life, teaching their kids to cheat. I'd like to see some proof.
I challenge all of you to dig into this issue. Start noticing the people around you how they pay for things when in line at the store. I never noticed before someone challenged me either. Now I do and its more prevalent than I had ever imagined.
Sinjin I have no prove to offer you that I can display here on the internet. However if its all a hocks ( sorry, dont know how to spell) then why do we hear so often that the inter cities are filled with abusers? Why do people that break outta those situation tell of the years on welfare? If Hollywood produces a real-to-life movie about intercities why do they portray welfare abusers?
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 723
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From: Spring, Texas
Originally posted by Waxy
NO. This is my position as posted above.
Do you even read my posts.
Waxy
NO. This is my position as posted above.
Do you even read my posts.
Waxy
You said there is no practical solution and left it at that.
You offered no remedy to the problem. Infact you downplayed the problem as though it was not as big a problem as I think is the norm.
Ithink thats how you put it.
Gotta go. To Be Continued Tomorrow.