Quote Bush:
Postmaster
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,496
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From: Calgary Canada
Originally posted by camo4stealth
Waxy, you are missing one very salient point. You stated that you cannot force a person to work. True, you cannot force a peson to do anything, except maybe die. In your viewpoint, apparently, there is no problem forcing others (through confiscation of their wages) to support the ones who refuse to work. Do you really think the government will, or would want, to correct the situation? No. Our government feeds off itself, for itself. It has lost all contact with the taxpayers. Elimination of giveaway programs (more like takeaway) would cause reduction of government, lost beauracracies, etc. Most govenment workers could not make it in the real world, so, they too are on the giveaway/takeaway plan. Do you want to see this country prosper? Here's the problem. You (or anyone else who reads this) goes in to Wal-Mart to buy a blender. The american make model costs $16.50 and the chinese model is $9.95. Same features, same look. Most people go with the chicom blender. Clothing, cars, furniture, tools, you name it and all of the sudden, people (the stupid ones, anyhow) point their collective fingers at our president and ask "how could he let all of our jobs go overseas?" Do you doubt any of what I just wrote? It is all the truth.
Waxy, you are missing one very salient point. You stated that you cannot force a person to work. True, you cannot force a peson to do anything, except maybe die. In your viewpoint, apparently, there is no problem forcing others (through confiscation of their wages) to support the ones who refuse to work. Do you really think the government will, or would want, to correct the situation? No. Our government feeds off itself, for itself. It has lost all contact with the taxpayers. Elimination of giveaway programs (more like takeaway) would cause reduction of government, lost beauracracies, etc. Most govenment workers could not make it in the real world, so, they too are on the giveaway/takeaway plan. Do you want to see this country prosper? Here's the problem. You (or anyone else who reads this) goes in to Wal-Mart to buy a blender. The american make model costs $16.50 and the chinese model is $9.95. Same features, same look. Most people go with the chicom blender. Clothing, cars, furniture, tools, you name it and all of the sudden, people (the stupid ones, anyhow) point their collective fingers at our president and ask "how could he let all of our jobs go overseas?" Do you doubt any of what I just wrote? It is all the truth.
I'm not real sure how to respond to this.Forced to pay taxes - yes you are, unless you're Sovereign.
What I get from this is a strictly selfish approach to the situation with no real thought to the consequences, or the reason for the problem in the first place. I don't want to pay for a bunch of freeloaders, so I shouldn't have to. Fair enough, but the problem isn't going to go away. One way or another, whether it be through charities, insurance rates, or other taxes not "directly" going to welfare you're gonna pay for it, and not always voluntarily.
As for your point about gov't, it has some truth, but like whistler pointed out, YOU ARE THE GOVERNMENT, if you decide things need to be changed, they'll change.
Overseas competition is just one of the problems facing the US, and Canada, and yes, it is DIRECTLY tied to social programs.
If it's stupid to buy an equivalent product at half price, then I'm really stupid. If Americans/Canadians can't make the product at competetive prices, then maybe we're all stupid.
Waxy
Senior User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 228
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From: Spring, TX
Originally posted by Waxy
Sounds like robbing Peter to pay Paul to me.
A tax, by any other name (government incentive), is still a tax.
Waxy
Sounds like robbing Peter to pay Paul to me.
A tax, by any other name (government incentive), is still a tax.
Waxy
I agree that the total pot of money hasn't changed - either the gov't has it or charities have it. But, if I can give it directly to a charity, then I can support the causes I believe in and not those that I don't.
Maybe the entire gov't should be funded in this manner. They tell me how much I have to pay, but I get to specify which agencies (including the military) get the money.
Postmaster
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,496
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From: Calgary Canada
Originally posted by HerbertKornfeld
Maybe the entire gov't should be funded in this manner. They tell me how much I have to pay, but I get to specify which agencies (including the military) get the money.
Maybe the entire gov't should be funded in this manner. They tell me how much I have to pay, but I get to specify which agencies (including the military) get the money.
Now that's a can of worms!
Waxy
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 723
Likes: 1
From: Spring, Texas
Originally posted by whistler
You didn't answer my most important question: who decides what a severe physical or mental defect is?
Whistler
You didn't answer my most important question: who decides what a severe physical or mental defect is?
Whistler
To answer your question whistler ABC would decide you recieves and who does not. Just like all other charities. Most have an application process that each applicant must go through before becoming eligable for benefits. I propose that ABC would be much more stringent in the application process because they have less money to spread around.
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,540
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From: Los Angeles safe and warm
Originally posted by HerbertKornfeld
Maybe the entire gov't should be funded in this manner. They tell me how much I have to pay, but I get to specify which agencies (including the military) get the money.
Maybe the entire gov't should be funded in this manner. They tell me how much I have to pay, but I get to specify which agencies (including the military) get the money.
Senior User
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 425
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From: WA
Originally posted by whistler
Who wants free prescription drugs? Millions of elderly people. Sounds like congress is following the will of the people (albeit not perfectly-if they did it right, according to critics, seniors would never pay for medical care again).
Who wants medicare/medicaid? Absolutely every baby boomer approaching retirement age. They are all talking about holding off on retirement until medicare kicks in. Sounds like the people got what they wanted here.
Who wants free prescription drugs? Millions of elderly people. Sounds like congress is following the will of the people (albeit not perfectly-if they did it right, according to critics, seniors would never pay for medical care again).
Who wants medicare/medicaid? Absolutely every baby boomer approaching retirement age. They are all talking about holding off on retirement until medicare kicks in. Sounds like the people got what they wanted here.
.wanting all those things fixed.
Haulingboat, how would you feel if the next time your kid is sick, you find out your insurance doesn't cover that illness? Pay up front or leave. After all, taxes are redistribution of wealth, what are insurance premiums?
...redistribution of wealth. You don't really think your last hospitalization was fully covered by measly contribution to the insurance pool?
Last edited by kennyrrt; Dec 16, 2003 at 02:57 PM.
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 723
Likes: 1
From: Spring, Texas
Originally posted by HerbertKornfeld
This program already exists.
If you give money to a charity, you can deduct those contributions from your tax return. In effect, you are lowering the taxes you pay by contributing to charity.
This program already exists.
If you give money to a charity, you can deduct those contributions from your tax return. In effect, you are lowering the taxes you pay by contributing to charity.
All I'm suggesting is the removal of government control. Put it into the hands of some one that can control the abuse.
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Senior User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 448
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Originally posted by haulingboat
Sorry I had to do some work for awhile there. Gotta stay off welfare after this post.
Sorry I had to do some work for awhile there. Gotta stay off welfare after this post.
I know the feeling.
To answer your question whistler ABC would decide you recieves and who does not. Just like all other charities. Most have an application process that each applicant must go through before becoming eligable for benefits. I propose that ABC would be much more stringent in the application process because they have less money to spread around.
However, this does not even address the real issue. What does it mean to need assistance? What is a real inability?There is no good way to determine the difference between freeloaders and those who honestly need help. Well, at both ends of the spectrum it becomes obvious, but in the middle it is definately cloudy and very gray. Furthermore What does it mean to make it? What is an appropriate standard of living for people who receive benefits? What happens to a group if they cannot bring the applicants to that standard of living? What if nobody can?
Another factor to consider in the charity model is the cost of government oversight. I can't imagine that would be cheap but it would certainly be necessary.
Whistler
Last edited by whistler; Dec 16, 2003 at 03:19 PM.
Senior User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 228
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From: Spring, TX
Originally posted by whistler
Kornfeld for president in '04?
Whistler
Kornfeld for president in '04?
Whistler
But, I'm really more of a monarch, benevolent despot, kind of guy. You know - absolute power sort of thing.
If the position of King of the United States of America opens up, give me a call.
Till then, I'll remain a citizen of the Republic.
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,540
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From: Los Angeles safe and warm
Originally posted by camo4stealth
Most govenment workers could not make it in the real world, so, they too are on the giveaway/takeaway plan.
Most govenment workers could not make it in the real world, so, they too are on the giveaway/takeaway plan.
In addition, if you want to see inflated prices for public services just give it to a profit motivated private company. I work for the gov't and know of what I speak.
The ridiculous prices paid by the gov't for this and that stem from the ridiculous bills given the gov't by private contractors.
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 723
Likes: 1
From: Spring, Texas
Originally posted by whistler
I know the feeling.
If you can arbitrarily create a cut-off point based on the availability of money what happens if the money runs out before the need? [/B]
I know the feeling.
If you can arbitrarily create a cut-off point based on the availability of money what happens if the money runs out before the need? [/B]
What does the toys for tots do for toys each Christmas? They have a motorcycle run and toy drive.
What would ABC do to raise money you ask? I say a drive would be a good place to start. They'd raise money the same way all charities do.
Postmaster
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,496
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From: Calgary Canada
I think it's unrealistic to think that charities could make up the difference. Toys for tots doesn't have a drive every day, they do it once a year to meet specific needs. How long do you think the support would hold up if they knocked on your door every day?
If the problems of welfare dependence/abuse could be solved with a charity drive, where do I sign up?
Waxy
If the problems of welfare dependence/abuse could be solved with a charity drive, where do I sign up?
Waxy
Senior User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 448
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Originally posted by haulingboat
What does the Red Cross do when they run outta blood? They have a blood drive.
What does the toys for tots do for toys each Christmas? They have a motorcycle run and toy drive.
What would ABC do to raise money you ask? I say a drive would be a good place to start. They'd raise money the same way all charities do.
What does the Red Cross do when they run outta blood? They have a blood drive.
What does the toys for tots do for toys each Christmas? They have a motorcycle run and toy drive.
What would ABC do to raise money you ask? I say a drive would be a good place to start. They'd raise money the same way all charities do.
Whistler
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 723
Likes: 1
From: Spring, Texas
All right whistler and waxy what about The National Cancer Foundation? They provide everyday and live success.
Government is not the only provider.
What about the National Kindney Foundation from which my father and Aunt have both recieved transplants? We did not ask the taxpayers to pay for it. We relied on personal contributions.
The Red Cross
Food for the Hungry
Fedration for the blind
Foundation for missing childs
These organizations operate daily.
Government is not the only provider.
What about the National Kindney Foundation from which my father and Aunt have both recieved transplants? We did not ask the taxpayers to pay for it. We relied on personal contributions.
The Red Cross
Food for the Hungry
Fedration for the blind
Foundation for missing childs
These organizations operate daily.
Last edited by haulingboat; Dec 16, 2003 at 03:38 PM.