Hey guys and gals,

It's finally getting cool enough out here in north TX to do an IP swap without catching a heat stroke. I'm looking at pumps from Moose and I am considering one of the two: Moose Junior or Baby Moose. I have a 2nd gen Banks Sidewinder and new factory spec injectors on the engine already. I'm not against having a little more power but I am not into rolling coal or wasting fuel for giggles. It's an IDI. If I wanted a fast truck, I would buy one. However, when I pull Chevy 3500s, I would like to at least be able to make it up to 65MPH. I have a Pyro and boost gauge already. I built the E4OD transmission with upgrades, so it is mostly 4R100 parts with a Transgo Tugger kit.

Who knows or has one of the Moose pumps and can give me an idea of real-world performance/differences?

A little background: My U-Haul IP from over 10 years ago started having hot-start issues. I ordered a pump from Pensacola and it was worse than the one I had sent back. I don't think I ever got to fully utilize the turbo I installed when I bought the truck. It never smoked even a little under the heaviest of loads. I was cautious and only turned the pump up one or two flats. I mostly use the truck to haul a trailer or fill the bed with stuff aside from taking it out every so often to keep the juices flowing.

 

if you are stock other than a turbo, i would jut go for a stock pump. you can still turn it up 2-3 flats to match the turbo with no issues at all.
a worked pump may be too much for a stock engine and you may not be able to turn it down enough. that is something you will need to ask Mel before buying.

 

That's what my backup IP is. One from that U-haul closeout deal. If that's what you're running, you're right. A turbo spec IP is much better than a maxed N/A IP. I ran the Bull moose for many years and miles. 2nd gen banks w/ intercooler. I'd never run that IP without an intercooler. It would be worthless. You'd be driving by the EGT's and always be backing off. If you just drive empty and your truck is a toy, that's fine though, but if you're trying to work the truck, you'd just be frustrated. There's no way an intercooler is optional with the bull.......no way. Not if you use your truck anyway.

I have the smoke puff limiter and it had all it could do to try and handle some of the extra smoke. It never could rid it all. I usually had to hit the OD cancel to downshift early so it didn't look like I had an old oil burning junker haha. Otherwise, I could load up and hold it right to the floor uphill and it was great match for the truck, but it was rare I ever needed that much fuel. It treated me well for many years.

Then once that wore out I got a turbo spec IP. First off, I noticed a major difference with the smoke puff limiter. I could actually tune the thing like it was designed. The trubo IP will still blow black smoke without the limiter dialed in. This is with an intercooler remember too. The truck feels as strong as it ever was, but you know how IP's ware and you lose power over time, then I put a new IP in and it felt just as good, even slightly better than the older IP, but now I can choke her down and kill the power with the smoke puff limiter, dial it back to let it smoke, or tweak it right in between with no power loss and zero.......literally zero black smoke! No more worrying about puffing black in towns if I forget to downshift early. I can let it hold OD for as long as it wants and it will downshift super clean.
The only way to keep a maxed turbo spec IP burning without any black smoke at any time, is with an intercooler, be properly timed and with a smoke puff limiter. You'll possibly be down on power if you don't have an intercooler and need to choke down the limiter more. Without a smoke puff limiter, not a chance,especially without an intercooler.

I feel after all these years, anything over a turbo spec IP for a run of the mill, stock IDI w/ one of the turbo kits, just isn't needed.
A maxed N/A IP in my F450 w/ intercooler and 2nd gen banks (no smoke puff limiter) will smoke some. There's no shortage of fuel from an N/A pump. The power is far superior between the N/A and the turbo IP. That you can feel! I don't think it's so much about fuel rate as it is the fuel timing curve difference. It's a far better match. You can really feel it. I know when I install my backup IP and go back to the turbo IP. Way more power.
This is because our IP's are our distributor too really. The turbo IP shoots out the "spark" (fuel, in our case) at a far better timing for the turbo.

I'd never run anything over a turbo spec IP again. Liked the bull, but I like the turbo IP much better. Just because it feels basically the same, but the truck runs clean.............But like I say, only because of the intercooler and smoke puff limiter at that. This feels like the perfect match. No intercooler and no smoke puff limiter, then you will probably be blowing black under load if you try and max it........which is how it comes from Mel.

We all use our trucks so differently. One guys setup, with everything maxed out in a light pickup just driving around like a car, would frustrate those of us with heavy dump beds loaded up. We'd be driving by the gauges and couldn't even climb a hill while loaded. Work and play are very different.

 

I know it's been a while but I talked to Moose and they sold me a Moose Jr pump a few months ago. We all know how to properly install and time a new IP, so I will save you that explanation.

After I installed the pump and put everything back together, I noticed the engine stalls out immediately after letting off the accelerator at anything above about 1400 RPM. I'm pretty disappointed. I get a constant 5.5-6 PSI at the fuel filter at any RPM range. I don't think it is a fuel supply issue. I sent Moose an E-mail explaining it just now and will wait to hear back. It's not usually a easy fix from what I have read today.

 

what rpm is your idle set at?
it could just simply be too low idle rpm

 

Did you time the IP with a piezoelectric spark adapter/luminosity probe or just line up the marks?

 

Idle is 650-700

 

I have a Ford Rotunda timing tool. I used the piezoelectric adapter. Timing is at 9.0-9.5 BTDC.

 

Moose Diesel responded to my inquiry this morning and suggested I bypass the timing advance engine temp sensor and to tie in my return lines to the fuel filter housing. They also suggested to use a heavy dose of Howe's Diesel Treatment along with driving the truck to help free up the metering valve and or advance piston. I will hopefully get some time this weekend to start on those possible solutions.

 

timing is a little advanced, it should be around 8.5 BTDC. but i dont see that as being enough to cause the issue.
if i remember correctly my 88 is 10 BTDC. but i also have fuel turned up and no muffler to go along with the non waste gated Bands turbo.

 

Hmmm, at least they responded promptly but the suggestion of needing to run an additive to free up the metering valve or advance piston is a little disappointing with a brand new pump. Maybe try the ATF soak if the Howe's doesn't change anything. There's also the Liqui-Moly Diesel Purge where you disconnect the supply and return lines so you can run just the Diesel Purge through the filter, IP, and injectors.
Was the suggestion to tie in the return lines to filter housing in regards to possible air intrusion issues? I ask because so many people recommend plugging the return line port on the filter housing. I don't think the timing would be an issue. My 1990 was set to about 10.5 degrees when I bought it, checked with Tech Time, and it started and ran just fine.

 

x2

I'd think the ol' ATF trick in the fuel filter would be something you do to an IP with 100k+ miles on it, like my 6.9l. Didn't you also mention you got injectors from Moose?

 

Yeah I wouldn't think a new IP would need "help" of any kind but that's what Moose Diesel is suggesting. I've done the ATF soak on my IP but that's because it has over 100k on it and I want to extend its life as much as possible. I find it interesting that Howe's was recommended when that additive consistently tests poorly compared to other additives.

 

Yeah, i think the timing is OK. Ford spec is 8.5 +/- 2 degrees. If it was any more than 9.5, I would turn it back a bit.

 

Moose did say they run the tolerances very tight on the metering valve. I think I am going to do the ATF soak as well as the fuel treatment.

You are correct about the return line situation. I am running a 6.9 fuel filter head and I capped off the return line so it is not tied in with the fuel filter. I know a lot of people run this config and I have not had any issues with it but for troubleshooting purposes, I will connect the return line.