Hey There!

I've been looking into rings as of late for my build. I reached out to Total Seal about gapless rings, and I hope to hear back tomorrow. I like the concept of this ring style, and the benefits seem really good if they're all true.

However..... The top definitely cannot be gapless, because it is a keystone style ring.... The hope is that the secondary ring will work (more ideal for a turbocharged engine anyway according to their site). The second ring also has a slight step/bevel in it. I'm just wondering if anyone else has explored this possibility on stock pistons before.

Thanks!

 

As far as I have ever known. Gapless rings are a BAD idea, turbo/super or not.

 

Total seal gapless rings are really gapless, they have a stepped end similar to a turbocharger oil seal ring. The picture below gives you the basic idea of how they work, the piston rings will be thinner of course and the overlap greater, but this pic shows the general concept. Without some form of a gap the rings couldn't be installed nor could they expand/ contract with temperature changes without breaking themselves.



Plenty of race engines use them and they flat work. Total seal is a well established company with a good reputation, and their rings aren't exactly a new technology. The reason more people (myself included) haven't ever ran their rings is because of the benefit to cost ratio. Yes there is absolutely a benefit to their rings, but it's a big cost for a small improvement.


Post edit: Here's a picture of an actual Total seal gapless ring (pic courtesy of google image search) that shows the gap overlap. Again these rings have an excellent reputation in the competition engine world, but man are they expensive compared to regular ole piston rings.



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Here is a quote from an engine builder on the FEPower forum that sums it up pretty well for me.

"Because they optimize a test result - rather than a functional aspect. They make a leakdown tester look great at 100 psi on a stationary piston, at room temperature. But that is not the environment where piston rings actually work. As far as I know there are a total of zero OE manufacturers that have adopted a gapless ring not matter what the vehicle configuration or cost. Nothing designed for economy, no Ferraris, no heavy duty diesels, no efficiency models. None. That does not reflect well on all the marketing claims and any patents expired a dozen years or more ago."

 

No OE manufacturer offers nitrous oxide or water-methanol injection systems either, so by the logic above, they must not work either.
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Surely you jest. I have no idea how your comparing those to piston rings. Although I would be even less inclined to go gapless with Nitrous

Your heading said your exploring, just giving some insight from a person much more knowledgeable than myself. Have also read similar comments many times over through the years.

 

Slight jest, but really I was pointing out the flaw in logic of " if no OE manufactured does it, it must not work" type thinking.

Total seal rings are used in race/ competition engines pretty regularly, were every little bit counts,. I've personally never used them because of the cost (I was always a hobbyist racer and my only sponsor was my wallet). But I've seen plenty of cars parked in the winners circle with a total seal sticker on it somewhere.

I don't see enough benefit in them for any kind of street/ tow application that would justify them, but to each their own.
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Wow, you guys have really been helpful! I'm sorry I took a while to respond, just super busy (and sick)!

Antonm23, I was surprised to see that this is how the piston rings work, but it makes sense. When I watched installation of Total Seal Rings on a Caterpillar 3126, there where two rings on one land, set 180 degrees apart. One ring was close to normal size, the other was super thin. Seeing how you described them was surprising, but not inaccurate. I guess they use different designs in different applications?

I have zero experience with this, so how much of a price difference are we talking here? A set of MAHLE rings seems like it'll be around $350, but I hope to find it for less. If these rings cost a lot more, why? Are they that much more expensive to make then traditional rings?

The main reason these appealed to me is not only power. I'm not building this to be a race engine, just a reliable engine. Total Seal claims their rings will last longer, which makes sense in my mind. However, this likely is not enough of an issue to justify the cost. They also claim their rings help keep oil cleaner, which sounded good to me in a HEUI System....

Last thing I want to do is overspend. As long as conventional rings are properly installed, and a good hone job is done, it shouldn't be that big of an issue. I appreciate everyone's responses!

 

Just heard back from Total Seal, and I am honestly very surprised. Their prices are a bit more reasonable than I thought.

They can do two things:
Create an entire Total Seal Ring Set, consisting of an average keystone top ring, a gapless second ring, and oil rings - $472.50
Modify the second rings of a MAHLE Set - $103.11

I was expecting it to cost a lot more. It could still be wasted money for a non-race engine though.

I am hoping the machine shop won't need to bore our block, as I could still see the hone marks. I am really hoping a re-hone will do the job, but we'll see. The main reason it is at the machine shop is for crank polishing and block decking. The heads have already been done. I'll keep you all updated, and do more research.

JC

 

Antonm, after looking over that Total Seal picture and researching, I see how they work now.... The picture angle was fooling me.

I'm going to be calling my machine shop tomorrow to see if he can get bore size measurements and inspect it. If I can find out if we need to go oversize on the rings, that'll help. I'll also let you guys know what his opinion of them are, I want to make sure I won't hurt the engine in anyway by installing them.

A lot of people like these, and claim to have cleaner oil and better oil analysis results. This sounds great to me, but....

Ring flutter with a gapless second ring has been a concern for others because of pressures that can build up between the top and second ring and have no where to go. Total seal and others seems to say this is a high RPM issue, much higher than this engine will ever see. However, is it something to consider with the Keystone ring up top? Could these pressures interfere with the function of the Keystone ring?

S4914 seems to be the Total Seal part number for the 6.0L Powerstoke..... I believe S4914 20 is 0.020 oversize, and so on.

I've found them in many places for less than the original amount stated in the email from Total Seal.
-Summit Racing has them for $339.41. If that is all I have to pay, that's a much better price. It seems this price on Summit is consistent regardless of oversize.
-Total Seal told me in an email that directly from them would be about $472.50.
-Total Seal will modify a Mahle ring set for $103.11 Which puts me in the early 300s before shipping using a standard size $203 Mahle set from Amazon (can I trust Amazon though?).

They'll need two to three weeks before shipping, because from what I heard, they're out of stock for the S4914. Summit Racing simply ships them from the manufacturer, no quicker there. Whatever route I take (if I go gapless) will require some time, so I'm really hoping to get those bore measurements ASAP.

Still a month or so out on machining.

Please, let me know what you guys think. I want opinions before I purchase.

 

Personally, I would just use traditional rings. And no, you can't trust amazon or Ebay to not be counterfeit, go with a reputable retailer ( like Summit racing ).
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I figured.... Why would an amazon set be so much less, when most Mahle sets on XDP are going for over $45 a cylinder? Many want $40ish a cylinder. Summit Racing is much less, around $244 for all 8 including tax, that's very reasonable. Why so much less there though???

Even crazier is Ford Rings (4C3Z-6148-AA) is over $50-60 a cylinder typically.

They may not be right for my build, but at least we know Total Seal's rings aren't too far out of reach as far as price. You may even spend less than some Mahle suppliers, and definitely less than OEM

I'll keep you all updated, we'll see what the machinist says. He builds race engines daily, so I'm sure he'll have an opinion. Most likely, he'll say I don't need them as well.

 

>>>But I've seen plenty of cars parked in the winner's circle with a total seal sticker on it somewhere.

That doesn't mean they use them; the car is a billboard. Many racers have had stickers from my old company (Federal-Mogul, Moog, Abex, Champion, National, Fel-Pro, Wagner) with nary a part in sight.

Working for hours or days of racing also does not mean they won't carbon up the gap and be ideal for long-term consumer use. With more of a pressure path, stock rings have a little more ability to blow out carbon that could accumulate in the gap. We'd have to ask a piston ring engineer how well that migrates through the triple-ring path. Mahle might have a good answer; if it's more than a cost consideration.

 

[size=16px]"I'm not building this to be a race engine, just a reliable engine. Total Seal claims their rings will last longer, which makes sense in my mind. However, this likely is not enough of an issue to justify the cost. They also claim their rings help keep oil cleaner, which sounded good to me in a HEUI System...." Your words

As far as reliability regarding rings, I've read of zero issues with these motors. Total Seals should be at least as good, don't know if a person could tell a difference, maybe if towing a heavy load constantly.

Your best bet for ring seal is a proper hone job with torque plates. Even the best rings can't fix that if screwed up. [/size]

 

Toomanytoys, cost isn't the only consideration. If it is a good, worthy product, I'll spend the extra now if I don't have to tear it down again for a good long while! Did I understand correctly that you're suggesting I should contact MAHLE regarding carbon build-up blowing past the gaps. I'd be more than happy to, and would likely have other questions as well.

Totally agree on the hone job, and possibly even an over-bore, depending. I trust the guy who has the block, I know it is being done well. Most importantly, when I assemble it, whatever rings I use, they will be gapped and checked to ensure nothing is amiss.

You're likely correct on not really feeling a difference, I can't really expect to. The oil cleanliness and longer ring life is my interest

Now is my chance. If there is a good product, I'm already here and might as well put it in. But if its more of a gimmick than anything, I'll just put that little bit extra elsewhere.

The ring flutter "issue" is something I don't understand, and I hope maybe you guys do. The concern with ring flutter is that gases trapped between top and second ring can lift the top ring and reduce the sealing ability. How can this be the case though? Even if the top ring lifts, those gases have no where to go if the second ring has no gap, right? Regardless of what the top ring does, the cylinder is still fully sealed if the valves and second rings are all done right. Yet it seems to be a widely discussed issue. While I've read it is usually a high RPM issue, these cylinder pressures are greater than a typical gasser. Plus, do diesel keystone top rings suffer from this condition as badly?

Basically in my mind, the second ring becomes a full-on compression ring, while the top ring remains in place for heat transfer and additional compression sealing, but this may be a flawed way of seeing it.

Apologies for my long posts!