Long term oil test...
#1
11-16-2003, 10:21 PM
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Wynne, Arkansas
Posts: 283
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Long term oil test...
I have a new '03 Ranger (I4 2.3L) that I just drove home from the dealer... It has ~30 miles on it... Being the oil freak that I am, I'm tempted to do a long term oil test on this truck, especially since I find the new 5W20 deal so hard to accept... I have done long term tests before, but never with periodic lab tests and never in a very organized way...
Anyways, I was thinking of running dino Rotella "universal" 15W40 starting at 30 miles and doing changes at 5k with an analysis each time... I have been pretty impressed with Rotella in my other usage with it in older vehicles, and I think it would be fun to test it with a newer one...
Issues I see:
1 - Phosphorus content of Rotella might muck up cat. converter...
2 - Viscosity might be too far removed from what this Ford needs... This is assuming you buy into the tighter tolerances argument, which I don't, although there is a 10W30 Rotella we could use...
3 - Rotella is not API starburst certified, which IMO just means it isn't "optimised" for fuel efficiency and in fact might be better for engine longevity...
4 - Possible warranty issues...
I feel fairly comfortable running 15W40W, since I have a heated garage and it never gets much below 20F here in North Carolina... IMO, once the engine is at operating temp 40W will beat 30W any day... Besides, if it drops much below 20F here the entire state just shuts down...
While I usually think Ford does the right thing, I really think this 5W20 deal is all about raising Ford's average MPG figure and that this is being done at the expense of engine longevity...
If dino 15W40 Rotella is too extreme we could try dino 10W30 Rotella or try their syn 5W40 Rotella...
Any thoughts? Any other interesting oil we could try?
In a nutshell, I'm bored and I like playing "junior scientist"!
PS - Some quotes:
Anyways, I was thinking of running dino Rotella "universal" 15W40 starting at 30 miles and doing changes at 5k with an analysis each time... I have been pretty impressed with Rotella in my other usage with it in older vehicles, and I think it would be fun to test it with a newer one...
Issues I see:
1 - Phosphorus content of Rotella might muck up cat. converter...
2 - Viscosity might be too far removed from what this Ford needs... This is assuming you buy into the tighter tolerances argument, which I don't, although there is a 10W30 Rotella we could use...
3 - Rotella is not API starburst certified, which IMO just means it isn't "optimised" for fuel efficiency and in fact might be better for engine longevity...
4 - Possible warranty issues...
I feel fairly comfortable running 15W40W, since I have a heated garage and it never gets much below 20F here in North Carolina... IMO, once the engine is at operating temp 40W will beat 30W any day... Besides, if it drops much below 20F here the entire state just shuts down...
While I usually think Ford does the right thing, I really think this 5W20 deal is all about raising Ford's average MPG figure and that this is being done at the expense of engine longevity...
If dino 15W40 Rotella is too extreme we could try dino 10W30 Rotella or try their syn 5W40 Rotella...
Any thoughts? Any other interesting oil we could try?
In a nutshell, I'm bored and I like playing "junior scientist"!
PS - Some quotes:
Combined with starting aids, a 15W-40 multigrade is sufficient for temperatures down to 5ºF. If you plan to operate in temperatures that are continually well below freezing, you may want to switch to a 10W-30 or 10W-40 multigrade for the winter months. Most major engine manufacturers recommend a 10W-30 or 10W-40 for extremely cold temperatures.
Compared to passenger-car-only oils, I would expect ROTELLA T SAE 15W-40 to provide better wear and deposit control in gasoline engines. This more robust performance stems in part from the additives used in ROTELLA T. And ROTELLA T is a universal oil, meeting API Service Category CI-4 for diesel engines, and SL for gasoline engines.
However, ROTELLA T does not meet ILSAC, or API Certification Mark (starburst symbol) requirements, often recommended by gasoline engine makers in addition to API SL. These additional specifications deal with fuel economy, and limit elemental phosphorus content. Nearly all oils contain phosphorus, but heavy-duty oils like ROTELLA T contain more than passenger car oils. The reason for the limit on phosphorus content is that performance of some emission control catalyst is sensitive to phosphorus.
However, ROTELLA T does not meet ILSAC, or API Certification Mark (starburst symbol) requirements, often recommended by gasoline engine makers in addition to API SL. These additional specifications deal with fuel economy, and limit elemental phosphorus content. Nearly all oils contain phosphorus, but heavy-duty oils like ROTELLA T contain more than passenger car oils. The reason for the limit on phosphorus content is that performance of some emission control catalyst is sensitive to phosphorus.
#3
11-17-2003, 10:06 AM
Post Fiend
#4
11-17-2003, 11:11 AM
Post Fiend
I'd run the 10w30. If you run too thick of oil in a new engine without enough bearing clearance the oil will shear at high rpms and the bearings will wear until there is enough clearance. This is also one of the big reasons not to rev up an engine very much until it's warm, as the oil is thicker when it's cold.
Sounds like a good test, let us know the results!
Sounds like a good test, let us know the results!
#5
11-17-2003, 11:56 AM
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Wynne, Arkansas
Posts: 283
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After a night of research and a few interesting emails, I have decided to do the 5W20, mainly because the answers from this test will be more helpful than with the Rotella... (Since a lot of people probably use the 5W20)
It is a bit scary, but if it wasn't it wouldn't be fun...
My new Ford has been sitting on the dealer lot for around 6 months... Everyone always says to replace the oil every 5k or 6 months, so do you think I need to change it? Also, is the factory fill any different than the Motorcraft 5W20 you can buy? I think I read once that some factories put break-in agents in the factory fill...
Finally, does anyone know what the torque rating is for the fill plug?
It is a bit scary, but if it wasn't it wouldn't be fun...
My new Ford has been sitting on the dealer lot for around 6 months... Everyone always says to replace the oil every 5k or 6 months, so do you think I need to change it? Also, is the factory fill any different than the Motorcraft 5W20 you can buy? I think I read once that some factories put break-in agents in the factory fill...
Finally, does anyone know what the torque rating is for the fill plug?
#6
11-17-2003, 12:14 PM
Senior User
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 317
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is 5w20 specd for that engine? I may be wrong, but the 2.5 I4 was supposed to use 5w30 for 2002 models. Have they changed that for 03 models?
By the way, I have a hard time using the 5W20 in my Taurus, but with almost 30k, I think I may start using 5w30. I use diesel oil in my 4.9, but would not use it in a 3.0.
By the way, I have a hard time using the 5W20 in my Taurus, but with almost 30k, I think I may start using 5w30. I use diesel oil in my 4.9, but would not use it in a 3.0.
#7
11-17-2003, 04:20 PM
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Wynne, Arkansas
Posts: 283
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trending Topics
#8
11-17-2003, 04:42 PM
#9
11-19-2003, 06:50 AM
XYZZY: You make some good points and I think you are right on, except for the decision to go with the sewing machine oil. Check out these references as they support what you are saying about the new oils and may help you refine your decision on what to do with the ranger:
The faults of the starburst/"Energy Conserving Oils" and the perceived (and maybe real) threat to the catalytic converter from phosphorus:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...up=Maintenance
Why it says 5w20 on your oil filler cap and why the owner's manual does not allow any other oil weights:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/dearmfr/ccd0006.pdf
Do the new engines really have tighter tolerances:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...up=Lubrication
Other good stuff:
http://www.noria.com/learning_center...up=Lubrication
For fleet oils, Valvoline Premium Blue (Walmart) looks good, as does Chevron DELO 400, but I wouldn't go that route with your new engine. Try a 10w30 Valvoline Maxlife (or even a 5w30 Maxlife). Maxlife is a "high mileage" oil but can be used in new engines and probably should be. It does not have the starburst/Energy Conserving stuff, but does have the lower phosphorus to ensure the converter is not harmed. Also, unlike all other high mileage oils I have researched, Valvoline's is not bulked up viscosity. It should work very nicely in your engine.
The faults of the starburst/"Energy Conserving Oils" and the perceived (and maybe real) threat to the catalytic converter from phosphorus:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...up=Maintenance
Why it says 5w20 on your oil filler cap and why the owner's manual does not allow any other oil weights:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/dearmfr/ccd0006.pdf
Do the new engines really have tighter tolerances:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...up=Lubrication
Other good stuff:
http://www.noria.com/learning_center...up=Lubrication
For fleet oils, Valvoline Premium Blue (Walmart) looks good, as does Chevron DELO 400, but I wouldn't go that route with your new engine. Try a 10w30 Valvoline Maxlife (or even a 5w30 Maxlife). Maxlife is a "high mileage" oil but can be used in new engines and probably should be. It does not have the starburst/Energy Conserving stuff, but does have the lower phosphorus to ensure the converter is not harmed. Also, unlike all other high mileage oils I have researched, Valvoline's is not bulked up viscosity. It should work very nicely in your engine.
#11
11-20-2003, 12:27 AM
I would read up a lot more then just that machinerylubrication.com link. I've been using a 0w-30 synthetic in all my engines for almost 10 years now without any problems they mention what so ever. From a high revving 4 banger to a 550+ hp crate 460.
That article read more like an opinion rather then an unbiased independent test.
Your mileage may vary.
That article read more like an opinion rather then an unbiased independent test.
Your mileage may vary.
#12
11-20-2003, 06:27 AM
Good point. One should be well read in a subject before making a major decision. I think the Machinery Lubrication article is addressing dino oils, though it does not come right out and say it. The issue with temporary polymer sheer for fuel economy is for a dino to beat the test oil which is a synthetic. Synthetics generally do not have a lot of polymers--some have none--added.
#13
11-20-2003, 09:09 AM
Those are good articles, TallPaul, and they confirm what I've thought for years. Specifically, that engine clearances haven't gotten closer in today's cars. I've compared bearing specs from today back as far as the fifties, and there's absolutely no difference. There has to be enough room between two moving parts for a lube barrier to flow, and also to allow room for the dissimiliar metals to expand and contract. I wonder where this fallacy started anyway?......Certainly not from the Auto makers themselves, to imply that their products are more precisely made today?.......naw.....
The author that writes about the trend to lighter weight oils also has a valid point. It seems to me that the auto makers and consumers are at odds about what is important: i.e., auto mfgs need to comply with CAFE, and consumers want vehicle longetivity. Right or wrong, I sleep better with 10W-30 in my vehicles. (I do live in a moderate climate, however.)
The author that writes about the trend to lighter weight oils also has a valid point. It seems to me that the auto makers and consumers are at odds about what is important: i.e., auto mfgs need to comply with CAFE, and consumers want vehicle longetivity. Right or wrong, I sleep better with 10W-30 in my vehicles. (I do live in a moderate climate, however.)
#14
11-20-2003, 09:58 AM
fuliegalaxie: There is an opposing view on the thin oil. I found it through Noria. I will try to find it tonight and post it for the sake of getting both sides a chance. The article I posted on engine tolerances notes they think the issue is higher running temperatures, but I don't know how a thinner oil solves that (an oil cooler makes more sense). Somewhere I read that the 5w20 could be better if well constructed so it does not shear back vs say a 10w30 that suffers significant permanent polymer sheer and ends up (in the extreme case) with a lower 100C viscosity than the well-constructed 5w20; however, I am not convinced that this is a likely scenario.
#15
11-20-2003, 06:55 PM
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Wynne, Arkansas
Posts: 283
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I changed the oil today, and I noticed some interesting things:
1 - Unlike the older Rangers I have worked on before, the oil filter was easy to get to and was in a vertical position... This made pre-filling the filter very easy... I wish all my vehicles were like this (My wife's Toyota has the oil filter *behind* the exhaust manifold!)
2 - The oil drain bolt required very little torque to seal because it has a rubber gasket built into it... A very sweet design IMO... (Why is it metric? Ugh!)
3 - The oil I drained out looks very weird... It has 35 miles and 6 months on it... I expected it to look like brand new oil, but instead it looks like an olive green milkshake... I've never seen Motorcraft 5W20 before (I assume this is what the factory fill is) but I can't imagine it looks like this... I will post a picture later if I can get the lighting right...
Yesterday I spent almost half an hour talking to a Shell engineer about the Rotella and my application... She (!) provided me with a lot of good information and given the duty that this truck will be performing, I feel pretty comfortable with the 15W40...
I specifically asked her about the following issues:
1 - Phosphorous content: She indicated that this is a minor issue and that she has personally never had anyone call in with a problem, and that she has talked to a *lot* of people who are using Rotella in newer gas vehicles...
2 - Viscosity: Obviously, you don't want to run 15W40 if it is sub-zero... That said, even if the ambient temp drops in the teens or so the truck will not be in danger...
3 - Closer tolerances: She indicated that the tolerances on engines has not changed... She admitted that possibly the oil pump might be designed for a thinner oil, but that she had never actually heard of a problem yet, and many of the people she talks to run newer Fords... She also gave me a 5 minute lecture on how oil stays on the parts even over a period of days and explained that at no time will the parts be running metal on metal, especially since Rotella is designed to "stick around"... She told me that as long as I have oil pressure within 1-2 seconds of startup and as long as I don't hear any top end noises I will be okay... My gauge is a "dummy" gauge, but it does indicate pressure before I even finish starting...
4 - She explained that I might see a small drop in milage due to the lack of anti-friction stuff in the oil...
5 - She *strongly* encouraged me to run whatever the factory recommended for the warranty time period, but I personally believe that the secret to long engine life is a qood quality oil that is changed regularly... I really don't think it matters much what the actual oil is... I have run cars beyond 200,000 miles on the $.89 cent a quart generic NAPA oil and on $4+ a quart Mobil 1... I really think it doesn't matter that much... I used to, but not anymore...
I actually had planned on running the Delo 400, after seeing jimandmandy's thread about the oil analysis he did with that brand, but I couldn't find it locally... Sam's Club had the Rotella and the Mobil Delvac... Besides, I've never had an engine go bad with Rotella, and we use it a lot... (This is the first time I have run it in a totally new vehicle, though...)
I ended up with a Purolator PureOne filter... I've had very good success with these even though some people think they are a bit restrictive...
What impressed me the most about my conversation with the engineer was her attitude... At no time did she try a hard sell on me and she even mentioned that *any* HDMO would be good and that all the major players are very close in performance... I was also impressed with the web site because it had a lot of good info and it was easy to read...
We'll see what happens!
1 - Unlike the older Rangers I have worked on before, the oil filter was easy to get to and was in a vertical position... This made pre-filling the filter very easy... I wish all my vehicles were like this (My wife's Toyota has the oil filter *behind* the exhaust manifold!)
2 - The oil drain bolt required very little torque to seal because it has a rubber gasket built into it... A very sweet design IMO... (Why is it metric? Ugh!)
3 - The oil I drained out looks very weird... It has 35 miles and 6 months on it... I expected it to look like brand new oil, but instead it looks like an olive green milkshake... I've never seen Motorcraft 5W20 before (I assume this is what the factory fill is) but I can't imagine it looks like this... I will post a picture later if I can get the lighting right...
Yesterday I spent almost half an hour talking to a Shell engineer about the Rotella and my application... She (!) provided me with a lot of good information and given the duty that this truck will be performing, I feel pretty comfortable with the 15W40...
I specifically asked her about the following issues:
1 - Phosphorous content: She indicated that this is a minor issue and that she has personally never had anyone call in with a problem, and that she has talked to a *lot* of people who are using Rotella in newer gas vehicles...
2 - Viscosity: Obviously, you don't want to run 15W40 if it is sub-zero... That said, even if the ambient temp drops in the teens or so the truck will not be in danger...
3 - Closer tolerances: She indicated that the tolerances on engines has not changed... She admitted that possibly the oil pump might be designed for a thinner oil, but that she had never actually heard of a problem yet, and many of the people she talks to run newer Fords... She also gave me a 5 minute lecture on how oil stays on the parts even over a period of days and explained that at no time will the parts be running metal on metal, especially since Rotella is designed to "stick around"... She told me that as long as I have oil pressure within 1-2 seconds of startup and as long as I don't hear any top end noises I will be okay... My gauge is a "dummy" gauge, but it does indicate pressure before I even finish starting...
4 - She explained that I might see a small drop in milage due to the lack of anti-friction stuff in the oil...
5 - She *strongly* encouraged me to run whatever the factory recommended for the warranty time period, but I personally believe that the secret to long engine life is a qood quality oil that is changed regularly... I really don't think it matters much what the actual oil is... I have run cars beyond 200,000 miles on the $.89 cent a quart generic NAPA oil and on $4+ a quart Mobil 1... I really think it doesn't matter that much... I used to, but not anymore...
I actually had planned on running the Delo 400, after seeing jimandmandy's thread about the oil analysis he did with that brand, but I couldn't find it locally... Sam's Club had the Rotella and the Mobil Delvac... Besides, I've never had an engine go bad with Rotella, and we use it a lot... (This is the first time I have run it in a totally new vehicle, though...)
I ended up with a Purolator PureOne filter... I've had very good success with these even though some people think they are a bit restrictive...
What impressed me the most about my conversation with the engineer was her attitude... At no time did she try a hard sell on me and she even mentioned that *any* HDMO would be good and that all the major players are very close in performance... I was also impressed with the web site because it had a lot of good info and it was easy to read...
We'll see what happens!