400M Performance
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Mountain Pass
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 106
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400M Performance
I am helping a friend restore a '65 F100 2WD for his son. It came with a 352, we were looking at a full rebuild (stroker, the whole works).
We also wanted to go to front disks, to that end we found a '78 F150 that we can get those parts from. This pickup also has a 400M and C6 auto.
Is it practical to rebuild the 400M and make it a mild street performance engine, with good torque?
Any suggestions would be welcome. He is willing to put some money into getting this working well for his son.
We also wanted to go to front disks, to that end we found a '78 F150 that we can get those parts from. This pickup also has a 400M and C6 auto.
Is it practical to rebuild the 400M and make it a mild street performance engine, with good torque?
Any suggestions would be welcome. He is willing to put some money into getting this working well for his son.
Super Moderator
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,518
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Since you are starting with a 400 (no M, that's the 351), all you need to do to double the stock power or better, is get some 9.5ish compression pistons, a decent cam and a 4bbl intake and carb or EFI setup.
You can go beyond that if you want.
You can get a lot of info just checking threads here, like this current project:
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...1955-f100.html
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...selection.html
More of the same:
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...y-400-a-3.html
Note the mention of the roller cam. It is possible to stay with a flat tappet cam but break in and durability will keep you awake at night.
You can go beyond that if you want.
You can get a lot of info just checking threads here, like this current project:
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...1955-f100.html
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...selection.html
More of the same:
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...y-400-a-3.html
Note the mention of the roller cam. It is possible to stay with a flat tappet cam but break in and durability will keep you awake at night.
Super Moderator
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,518
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Having said all that, since you are working with an FE equipped '65, you could always stay FE.
They are probably more expensive than the 400, but as OEM they were built as low compression sloggers for pickups and true performance engines for cars and racing. No performance 400s, not even OEM 4bbl manifolds.
OEM parts can be combined for some solid power. You just need to mix and match correctly and make sure it's put together properly.
They are probably more expensive than the 400, but as OEM they were built as low compression sloggers for pickups and true performance engines for cars and racing. No performance 400s, not even OEM 4bbl manifolds.
OEM parts can be combined for some solid power. You just need to mix and match correctly and make sure it's put together properly.
Hotshot
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 10,543
Likes: 2,668
From: Near Salt Lake City
Like your original post saying you are willing to stroke it and or spend a bit of money
There is an article 40 years old now called
352 skidoo hello 428 (tells you how to build a 428)
IMO 400's are boat anchors at best (stick with the FE motor)
You can get decent power out of a 400 if you up the compression
They were pinging pigs anyway and run-on (dieseling) was always a problem
The valve cover says right on it 351M-400 They were all M's after 73 or so (slightly taller deck)
The intake manifold from a 351C will not fit a 400 without spacer plates
Check out some of Pro Stock Enginering parts for the FE
There is an article 40 years old now called
352 skidoo hello 428 (tells you how to build a 428)
IMO 400's are boat anchors at best (stick with the FE motor)
You can get decent power out of a 400 if you up the compression
They were pinging pigs anyway and run-on (dieseling) was always a problem
The valve cover says right on it 351M-400 They were all M's after 73 or so (slightly taller deck)
The intake manifold from a 351C will not fit a 400 without spacer plates
Check out some of Pro Stock Enginering parts for the FE
Cargo Master
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 2,699
Likes: 795
The 400 is easily a superior performance engine platform than the FE. It was a smogger engine in stock form but it can use most all of the good parts from the Cleveland engine to make power and those parts work far better on 400cid than they ever did on a 351. Of course it isn't an engine platform that originally came in those trucks so if that's important stick to the FE.
Hotshot
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 10,543
Likes: 2,668
From: Near Salt Lake City
I beg to differ Dave,
If 400's are superior?
Why do you not see them everywhere?
Why did Bob Glidden never run one?
Even with the extensive head modifications and added head bolts
They are lumps IMO
Screw a bolt thru the water jacket to gain head gasket sealing?
Lumps
I've owned several and even had one shoehorned into my 69 Boss 302 back in the day
Pinging schleps
If 400's are superior?
Why do you not see them everywhere?
Why did Bob Glidden never run one?
Even with the extensive head modifications and added head bolts
They are lumps IMO
Screw a bolt thru the water jacket to gain head gasket sealing?
Lumps
I've owned several and even had one shoehorned into my 69 Boss 302 back in the day
Pinging schleps
Hotshot
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 10,543
Likes: 2,668
From: Near Salt Lake City
I have yet to see one running at a dragstrip anywhere
428s on the other hand are out there running
428s on the other hand are out there running
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Cargo Master
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 2,699
Likes: 795
Bob Glidden didn't use a 400 based engine because he didn't need any of its attributes in his racing program. He wasn't running an engine at 400 cubic inches and above so having an extended deck height wouldn't be an asset. That doesn't make the 400 bad or inferior. The fact that it can use any cylinder head that'll bolt onto any small block Ford is a huge advantage over an FE. With factory heads the 400 gives the 4V head exactly what it needs, more displacement and how you get that is largely irrelevant. It is a shame that when Ford built a 400 inch engine that they built an engine that has a different deck height than the 351C.
Right now I have a 408 Cleveland engine on my dyno. It makes a little over 560 horsepower and 560lbs/ft torque. This is with a 195 runner TFS head, a dual plane intake, a 650 Holley, Hooker Competition headers for a Mustang chassis, Magnaflow mufflers, a hydraulic roller cam 235/240 @ .050 .622/.617 lift with a 1.7 rocker arm on 107 in on 105icl and less than 10:1 compression. If I put those same parts into and on a 400 it would run the same. I think that's pretty good.
Probably the main reason that you don't see more 400 based engines in racing applications is simply because of the availability of the 460.
Right now I have a 408 Cleveland engine on my dyno. It makes a little over 560 horsepower and 560lbs/ft torque. This is with a 195 runner TFS head, a dual plane intake, a 650 Holley, Hooker Competition headers for a Mustang chassis, Magnaflow mufflers, a hydraulic roller cam 235/240 @ .050 .622/.617 lift with a 1.7 rocker arm on 107 in on 105icl and less than 10:1 compression. If I put those same parts into and on a 400 it would run the same. I think that's pretty good.
Probably the main reason that you don't see more 400 based engines in racing applications is simply because of the availability of the 460.
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Mountain Pass
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 106
Likes: 2
Thanks 85e150, I appreciate the information. Good information in the links. Sorry about the "M", I have worked with FE's for most of the past 50 years. Because of that my first inclination was to build the 352 however considering the cost of parts to really make it work I decided to take a hard look at the 400.
I agree about the roller cam, the last cam I installed I stood at the engine changing RPM for 30 minutes per cam specs, and have still worried about it. I do use good oil with added zinc in these older engines.
I agree about the roller cam, the last cam I installed I stood at the engine changing RPM for 30 minutes per cam specs, and have still worried about it. I do use good oil with added zinc in these older engines.
Laughing Gas
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 896
Likes: 55
From: Bothell
What are your HP goals?
the 400 has a longer stroke than even the 428fe so there is that to consider. Both engines have lots of available aftermarket parts. The fe will have more options as for pistons and intakes. Tim Meyer is your best option for performance pistons for the 400.
If it were me I’d price out my build of each engine with a HP goal in mind and go with what wins. Both engines can be built into great truck engines. The FE can probably be built (for less $) into a good racing engine than the 400 but I get the feeling you aren’t building a racing engine for this project.
the 400 has a longer stroke than even the 428fe so there is that to consider. Both engines have lots of available aftermarket parts. The fe will have more options as for pistons and intakes. Tim Meyer is your best option for performance pistons for the 400.
If it were me I’d price out my build of each engine with a HP goal in mind and go with what wins. Both engines can be built into great truck engines. The FE can probably be built (for less $) into a good racing engine than the 400 but I get the feeling you aren’t building a racing engine for this project.
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 106
Likes: 2
My thanks to all who have responded, I appreciate you taking the time, and for the information.
Met with my friend yesterday and discussed options. His goal is a strong and reliable restoration for his son. He would like to see 400HP.
In the end we settled on the 400, as we had it as well as the C6 that came with it.
I recommended to him a good rebuild on the 400 with a roller cam, Tim Meyers pistons, balancing, headers, Edelbrock Performer intake and EFI, and possibly Edlebrock heads
We could use the electronic distributor that came with it, or swap it out, any thoughts?
Met with my friend yesterday and discussed options. His goal is a strong and reliable restoration for his son. He would like to see 400HP.
In the end we settled on the 400, as we had it as well as the C6 that came with it.
I recommended to him a good rebuild on the 400 with a roller cam, Tim Meyers pistons, balancing, headers, Edelbrock Performer intake and EFI, and possibly Edlebrock heads
We could use the electronic distributor that came with it, or swap it out, any thoughts?
Cargo Master
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 2,699
Likes: 795
The stock distributor can always be used to trigger an aftermarket ignition box if you want an ignition with a rev limiter and other features. Except for the plug and the lack of a center tap wire the pickup in an MSD distributor is strangely similar to the Ford Duraspark..