Bullnose cab replacement
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 56,983
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From: Virginia
I'll throw in my experience with cab swaps. I have done it 3 times. Twice with F series trucks. These two I have complete confidence in that they are entirely legal in Sakatchewan. What happened here is that I removed the public view VIN plate from the rusty cab by drilling rivets and I replaced the VIN plate on the replacement cab. I removed the door sticker and I also transferred a cowl tag and a tag between the box and cab so all numbers agree with the original documentation. The last two tags were held on with a single screw. Here's the caveat. "IN MY OPINION", I met any local requirement regarding VIN tampering in that I used the original VIN, which I already had registered to myself.
I had another vehicle, a Ranger, which I converted from 2WD to 4WD via a frame swap. This one, I have a little less confidence in as the frame VIN no longer matches the cab VIN. I registered it as the cab VIN on the advice of a local insurance agent. Here in Saskatchewan, registration and insurance are handled by one government entity called SGI. I no longer own this vehicle and you could make a case for misrepresentation here as the cab VIN identifies as 2WD and the truck remains similar in description, (single cab, short box) but clearly is now 4WD. I have another project waiting, also a Ranger, but an older one with the TIB suspension. This one gets to keep it's frame, but the plan was a V8 swap and TTB axles. All numbers would match and I have registration in my name, but the description will not match the VIN due to the 4WD conversion. It becomes a grey area when you consider misrepresentation, but the only way I know to get the description to read V8 4WD would be to get an SGI issued VIN, much like I would have to with a scratch built homemade trailer, but nobody will recommend this. Like it was said earlier, some questions are best left unasked.
I have another project pending and this one gets interesting. 1938 Ford truck on a Ranger frame. Yes, the 2WD frame from the first Ranger I mentioned. This VIN is already registered, but I have the registration in my name for the 1938 Ford truck. What makes this interesting is that the VIN for the 1938 Ford truck is stamped into the frame Rail and the transmission. There is no VIN plate or stamp anywhere on the sheetmetal. I do have the original frame and transmission and I will be not using them. So now what? Do I stamp the Ranger frame with the 1938 VIN? Does this pass the test of VIN tampering and/or misrepresentation in the province of Saskatchewan? Or do I go the government issued VIN route? I don't want to lose the year and identity of my 1938 Ford truck. A new VIN may replace 1938 with the year of construction and that brings a whole host of new factors that I really would rather not deal with.
Just in case anybody is thinking of those hexagon or rosette rivets that seem to bring $100 a pair at the swap meets, I used regular steel rivets when I moved the plates on the F series body swaps. There is nothing in Saskatchewan legislation that specifies Rivet style. I did hedge my bet somewhat with the urethane when I replaced the windows. Messy work near the VIN plate obscures the rivet heads. Nothing intentional here that could be seen as misrepresentation. Of course all of this is based on my opinion and my research into local laws and my queries to trusted sources in the registration and law enforcement entities, none of which came committed to writing. Big disclaimer here; Do your own research.
Last item to scratch you head over, take a look at the muscle car restorers. Good Mopar example at Graveyard Cars. Ford and GM have similar examples, search them for yourself. These guys are starting with nothing more than a few stamped scrap, a fender tag and a VIN number. Everything is reproduced for these cars and you can literally build a car with all new pieces. Original VIN's are attached and the finished product is presented as the real deal. The right options and build sheet can quickly bring 6 figure prices, maybe even more
Are they wrong? Are they misrepresenting the car? Are they tampering with the VIN? The industry seems to say no.
I had another vehicle, a Ranger, which I converted from 2WD to 4WD via a frame swap. This one, I have a little less confidence in as the frame VIN no longer matches the cab VIN. I registered it as the cab VIN on the advice of a local insurance agent. Here in Saskatchewan, registration and insurance are handled by one government entity called SGI. I no longer own this vehicle and you could make a case for misrepresentation here as the cab VIN identifies as 2WD and the truck remains similar in description, (single cab, short box) but clearly is now 4WD. I have another project waiting, also a Ranger, but an older one with the TIB suspension. This one gets to keep it's frame, but the plan was a V8 swap and TTB axles. All numbers would match and I have registration in my name, but the description will not match the VIN due to the 4WD conversion. It becomes a grey area when you consider misrepresentation, but the only way I know to get the description to read V8 4WD would be to get an SGI issued VIN, much like I would have to with a scratch built homemade trailer, but nobody will recommend this. Like it was said earlier, some questions are best left unasked.
I have another project pending and this one gets interesting. 1938 Ford truck on a Ranger frame. Yes, the 2WD frame from the first Ranger I mentioned. This VIN is already registered, but I have the registration in my name for the 1938 Ford truck. What makes this interesting is that the VIN for the 1938 Ford truck is stamped into the frame Rail and the transmission. There is no VIN plate or stamp anywhere on the sheetmetal. I do have the original frame and transmission and I will be not using them. So now what? Do I stamp the Ranger frame with the 1938 VIN? Does this pass the test of VIN tampering and/or misrepresentation in the province of Saskatchewan? Or do I go the government issued VIN route? I don't want to lose the year and identity of my 1938 Ford truck. A new VIN may replace 1938 with the year of construction and that brings a whole host of new factors that I really would rather not deal with.
Just in case anybody is thinking of those hexagon or rosette rivets that seem to bring $100 a pair at the swap meets, I used regular steel rivets when I moved the plates on the F series body swaps. There is nothing in Saskatchewan legislation that specifies Rivet style. I did hedge my bet somewhat with the urethane when I replaced the windows. Messy work near the VIN plate obscures the rivet heads. Nothing intentional here that could be seen as misrepresentation. Of course all of this is based on my opinion and my research into local laws and my queries to trusted sources in the registration and law enforcement entities, none of which came committed to writing. Big disclaimer here; Do your own research.
Last item to scratch you head over, take a look at the muscle car restorers. Good Mopar example at Graveyard Cars. Ford and GM have similar examples, search them for yourself. These guys are starting with nothing more than a few stamped scrap, a fender tag and a VIN number. Everything is reproduced for these cars and you can literally build a car with all new pieces. Original VIN's are attached and the finished product is presented as the real deal. The right options and build sheet can quickly bring 6 figure prices, maybe even more
Are they wrong? Are they misrepresenting the car? Are they tampering with the VIN? The industry seems to say no.
I am not condemning you and what you did. You owned all the vehicles, everything was on the up and up. But there are plenty of people who are not forthcoming and have stolen vehicles that they "clean up" with swapped vin tags and titles. There is a big business with buying very expensive wrecked vehicles that are totalled. and swapping vins to "clean up" the title so it's not salvage. Thousands of dollars there. That is why they are so picky about drilling and swapping vins.
You are stuck on the old truck. I am not sure what you do there. Most of the hot rod snobs look down on frame swaps. But if it gets a old vehicle on the road again I am all for it. There are rules against tampering with the vin. Does that also include "adding" a VIN? Or maybe you just say by by to the old frame and vin, but still use the old title? No numbers anywhere, but old hot rods are like that. A bunch of the older Fords used the number stamped on the old engine, and very few of them are left with the old 4 cylinder engine in them.
FTE Legend
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 30,906
Likes: 4,122
From: Angier, NC
I am with DaveF on the VIN any messing / changing is not legal here in the states but may be ok up north?
As for the shows on TV and that MOPAR guy swapping VIN's is also not legal but he is doing a show so he can say what ever he wants but I bet there is a lot he and others are not putting up front on VIN's.
Dave ----
As for the shows on TV and that MOPAR guy swapping VIN's is also not legal but he is doing a show so he can say what ever he wants but I bet there is a lot he and others are not putting up front on VIN's.
Dave ----
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,926
Likes: 116
From: Saskatchewan Canada
Well, I certainly respect your opinions and for the purpose of what I see as an interesting and valuable discussion, I'd like to submit a few links for your reading pleasure.
https://www.justice.gov/sites/defaul...-pl102-519.pdf
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/511
https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/...ons-18-usc-511
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/...6/page-49.html
Now, I'm not a lawyer and I do not offer this as any sort of legal advice. Use at your own discretion and interpretation, I do not take any responsibility for accuracy, but if you can prove this wrong, I would like to hear the reasoning.
The jist of this is that there is a US federal act called the "Anti Car Theft Act of 1992". Subsequent research points to Document 18, US Criminal Code. Cutting to the chase, section 511,(b),(2),(b) clearly allows the lawful removal of the VIN for repair purposes. Of course, I am Canadian and the US law does not necessarily apply to me, but there is a Canadian Criminal Code interpretation in section 353,(1),(3). For the most part, Canadian law follows the lead of the US.
I included a link to a document on proving violations of document 18. Interesting part is that law enforcement may use comparisons of the VIN as recorded in multiple locations to determine if any tampering had occurred. That's probably no surprise to any of us, but I would not be comfortable using a VIN previously assigned to a replacement cab used as a rust repair on a chassis with a different VIN. That Ranger frame swap that I did is likely my most sketchy adventure.
Thanks again to Dave F and Dave G for your input. I truly respect and appreciate it and I would look forward to what you may think of the above links.
https://www.justice.gov/sites/defaul...-pl102-519.pdf
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/511
https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/...ons-18-usc-511
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/...6/page-49.html
Now, I'm not a lawyer and I do not offer this as any sort of legal advice. Use at your own discretion and interpretation, I do not take any responsibility for accuracy, but if you can prove this wrong, I would like to hear the reasoning.
The jist of this is that there is a US federal act called the "Anti Car Theft Act of 1992". Subsequent research points to Document 18, US Criminal Code. Cutting to the chase, section 511,(b),(2),(b) clearly allows the lawful removal of the VIN for repair purposes. Of course, I am Canadian and the US law does not necessarily apply to me, but there is a Canadian Criminal Code interpretation in section 353,(1),(3). For the most part, Canadian law follows the lead of the US.
I included a link to a document on proving violations of document 18. Interesting part is that law enforcement may use comparisons of the VIN as recorded in multiple locations to determine if any tampering had occurred. That's probably no surprise to any of us, but I would not be comfortable using a VIN previously assigned to a replacement cab used as a rust repair on a chassis with a different VIN. That Ranger frame swap that I did is likely my most sketchy adventure.
Thanks again to Dave F and Dave G for your input. I truly respect and appreciate it and I would look forward to what you may think of the above links.
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