I just had one more thought to add.

As a guy who’s on his second EV, I don’t think this is right. Tax credits make them more affordable, but we have plenty of evidence to suggest people are buying them without the credits. GM and Tesla ran out of credits in 2020, but still sold every EV they could make. Only a few months ago, Tesla had a backlog of over six months, which came at a time when their production was at record volumes and rising daily. I bought my EV6 without any kind of a tax benefit, and this model no longer qualifies due to the North American assembly requirement. I have zero regrets about my purchase decision. I paid MSRP, and I’d put my car against anything else on the market that’s sold at an equivalent price for value.

But they’re still selling. A lot of them. Lots of people on another forum that I frequent report dealers are still asking over MSRP for them. The demand is there, and supply is taking off.

 

As there is plenty of evidence to suggest people are buying without the Tax Credit-then the Tax Credit should be stopped, the evidence suggests they are not needed. Ford is backed logged on superduty trucks, and has been for a while, maybe a lot of vehicles ICE or EV have been in short supply, we'll see in the next few months how that plays out. Regarding Tax Credits, this isn't free, God doesn't drop gold coins down to the US Treasury every time someone buys an EV (and gets the Tax Credit), the tax credit is a Cost to every American, as it is either paid for by debt, or paid for by failure to service the debt, in either case, it devalues our (that would be every American) currency, thus it can be said, everyone else is paying for the tax credit. As EVs are great (and as I've stated before) and for some people they are super great, super- duper, they shouldn't need a tax credit. I am all about the Free Market (with a huge emphasis on FREE). As one of our Country's Adversaries, China dominates the Li market, as we go further and further into the Li Bat future, our transportation sector suddenly becomes a slave to a foreign master. Just look at the EU, we had a president that warned the EU against getting on the Russian oil tit, they laughed, they aren't laughing now. The EU isn't as bad off as it could be, as Russia didn't control 90% of the oil market. China controls 90% of the Li market. I realize we live in a country that has a lot of "I hate the free market, we need rulers to tell us what to do and think" types, I will continue to pull for and work for a Free Market, one that is Not manipulated by our, or other govts. History shows us free markets work. I know some idiot will scream "What about monopolies", etc., so I am required to add, govt regulation are sometime needed to keep fairness in the Free Market system, nothing is perfect; however, regulations are one thing, Tax Credits are another.

 

https://oilprice.com/Alternative-Ene...evolution.html

I'll take this article with a grain of salt, however if it's to believe that electricity consumption is going to go up by 15% just for charging, that could be a huge problem overall. At current demand overall has been somewhat stagnat because modern home construction has added better sealing and insulation to keep demands at a minimum through the seasons. I'm sure with heat pumps, energy demand should drop a bit to help compensate, but that will still take a long time, especially if homes have to get retrofitted.

 

The second bullet point mentioned the Inflation Reduction Act and electric vehicle infrastructure projects. Coincidentally enough, the other night I read an article about the Biden administration is offering $1,100,000,000 to California in order to keep a nuclear power plant online.

Link to the very first search result, which I selected at random: https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/21/polit...fornia-climate

This offer of a sizeable payment to CA took place simultaneously as the Biden administration denied an application for aid from Michigan to restart a nuclear power plant.

Link to the very first search result, which I selected at random: https://fox2now.com/news/politics/ap...ar-plant-open/

I have linked these articles and this information here as it pertains to the thread title and ongoing discussion taking place within the thread. People consistently discuss and theorize the "way forward" for our nation and the world, but these are documented events taking place that will be the cornerstones for our "way forward".

 

Yes, yes indeed-$$$$1,100,000,000 of tax payer's money is going to CA for a Nuc Plant! Isn't it strange how those that have always hated Nuc Plants, are not chaining themselves to the white house, or the fences around the plant? If 100% of the power from that plant goes to CA, why should the All the Tax Payers in the other 49 states pay for it? I know there are some that feel the "leaders" in CA, are so great, they would have this figured out-without the fed money to keep this plant in operation. We are not hearing from them, I wonder why? Over a billion dollars to keep an old Nuc Plant in operation, doesn't seem like a good idea to me, unless it is paid for by CA state tax dollars. My guess is, if the rulers in CA were going to spend this type of money, they'd use it to buy windmills, and solar panels-and maybe some more funding for the great train they're building (this super train they're building is going to save a lot of power). I don't know why CA would need this Nuc Plant anyway, the rulers in CA already have a great plan, for their infrastructure etc., a waste of Fed Tax money in my opinion. I offer this opinion as pertains to the amount of electricity necessary to charge the fleet of EVs CA has passed into law, and how this could be a learning moment for the rest of the country. A Nuc Plant is a little bit larger than a small town when it comes to power generation. Just saying.

 

Guys, this is getting ridiculous.

We’re a truck forum, not a political one.

 

Message recieved.

 

This is a very simple minded argument. Fuel is the greatest single cost for trucks and they will save a great deal of money buying electricity instead of diesel. Fleet operators with thousands of trucks on the road are eager to be able to buy electric trucks that have no downtime for maintenance and far less time and cost to repair. There has been a shortage of qualified diesel mechanics for at least the last 20 years and so their shops take longer to get a truck back on the road. Being able to go longer intervals without fluid changes helps but a better solution is to remove the ICE from the truck.

The costs for shipping products has quadrupled for ocean freight in the last 18 months and the costs to ship by rail have increased more than 50%. It is the result of too little competition and the resulting profiteering. Valero had its profits increase by 500% in the past year and it was done by raising prices at the pump by more than 30%. It is even worse with Wall Street hedge funds in the oil futures market. It is estimated that 40% of the retail price for gas and diesel is the direct result of their manipulating the futures market.

What we are seeing is misinformation that is spread by people working for the oil and gas industry. No different than the sugar and tobacco industries that spread fear and doubt among gullible Americans.

 

This is a very simple-minded argument. The cost of electricity to the end user is not a stagnant cost, and while some of the electric current in the USA is generated by windmills and solar panels, those that actually understand how our power is generated laugh at those spreading misinformation, like people working for the News media out lets, or the tobacco industry. Either they are actually ignorant, and don't know how to research how America's Power is generated, or they are being duped by rulers, thus making them useful idiots. The facts are America's power comes several sources, see the chart below. Who made this chart? The U.S. energy Info Admin.
Now when we think, actually think, if the price of oil or coal goes up, will that effect the cost of electric in the US? If you must ask, God Bless you. And if you think the price of windmills, dams, solar cells, geothermal sources are Free, then double God Bless you. No, I believe as the price of natural gas (oil and gas wells), and coal go up, the price to generate Electricity goes up, Nuclear is in no way free (could be cheaper for some than others, if the FED gives you Tax Payers money to keep a plant on line, that power just got cheaper for those end users), If the demand for Electric continues to rise, so will the cost of that Electricity. Cost of Electricity has been on a steady climb over the last few years, there is no reason why it won't continue to climb, and it could climb very rapidly, as the law of supply and demand seems to work no matter what the rulers may say.

 

Soooo you're saying that this chart is what should be going through a person's mind when they start to car shop for an EV?

Let me tell you what would go through my mind if I were to begin EV shopping:

1. Contacting an electrician to get prices to run proper power and charging equipment to the outside of my garage.
2. Call my insurance guy to get pricing for the same coverage
3. Gleaning information from the city and DMV for time of purchase and annual registration fees and taxes.
4. Scouring the boards for factory and additional warranty coverage. The Mustang Mach E is apparently a schit show with problems right now and someone besides me would need to pay.
5. Figuring out which vehicle I wanted based on price, incentives and current or anticipated reliability.
6. Negotiating the best deal possible and then being prepared to walk away as I always have.

I'm not an engineer or even an educated man.
I know I'm being gouged for electricity but I'm being gouged for gas right now too.
I do take electricity for granted, it's been there my entire life and my local grid has become so much more reliable than in decades past.
Generating power isn't my problem, paying for what I use is.

Did I miss anything?

 

Tim, great post, and one I find no fault with. I posted the way our power is generated [US Power] to remind those that seem to think electricity is always going to be readily available, and cheap. At one time thinking Gasoline was readily available and was always going to be cheap, was common. I remember when diesel was cheaper than Gasoline. The Green revolution (in the US- Not China) is at war with fossil fuels and coal, as the rulers see fit to eliminate these sources of fuel, the price electricity will Increase. The taxes and fees being lost by states such as CA when you stop buying gasoline will be made up someplace else (in the CA example, the state is two Trillion dollars in debt-that debt needs to be serviced), my guess is those fees will be placed on EVs, one way or another the cost of operation is going to rise, if a different mindset takes control with a new set of rulers, gas could get cheaper in a hurry. It isn't hard for me or almost anyone else to remember when we had gasoline that cost less than $2/gal (in most states). I believe in the free market and a free country, if EVs are as wonderful (almost a gift from God) as many claim they are. then the Taxpayers shouldn't be paying anyone to buy one, or giving them a tax credit, or a grant etc... As they are super-duper, I'm surprised there isn't a line everywhere they are sold, and the value of ICE vehicles should be dropping like a rock, as who in their right mind would buy an ICE, when these great EVs are for sale? The Free Market is under attack, free markets work, in fact free markets brought us into modern times, and moved mankind forward at a speed never seen in the history of man. Stifling the Free Market does not seem like something that is part of a free country.

 

You don't give yourself enough credit... This post alone is indicative that you are in fact educated.

I spoke to a Mach-E owner the other day at the grocery store parking lot after I noticed they had a running light (daytime headlight) was out. They were "frustrated" to say the least at the quality of their vehicle. I wished them luck with getting the repairs and issues ironed out and told them I had my eye on the KIA EV6 or similar as I looked to the future.

 

I’ll admit to not having taken a close look at the MachE forums or their reliability. For me, the charging speed and vehicle-to-load capability ruled them out form serious consideration. After seeing the issues they’ve been having, I’m glad I did. I’m sure they will iron things out, but the MachE forums seem filled with people with various issues, one of them serious enough to trigger a recall and require dropping the battery if it fails.

Kia and Hyundai have sold more of their E-GMP cars than Ford has sold MachEs, and the forums are relatively quiet in comparison. I really hope Ford has their arms around these reliability issues for the Lightning. We’ll find out soon enough.

I’m on the road today, and vehicle-to-load is a huge benefit. Roadside Keurig is a heckuva lot cheaper and fresher than gas station coffee.

 

But, but, but, this is what Ford does all the damned time. They jump into things hip deep or worse and then suffer from poor quality, poor service after the sale and then lost sales to better managed companies such as the K-twins. It's disturbing to me and one of the mounting reasons why I'll be expanding my search radius for my next vehicle purchase.

 

Or Ford could do what Toyota is doing with electrric cars, which is nothing. My Windows 10 PC still has signicant problems and Microsoft has been working on its operating systems since 1982. One has to buy a Apple computer to get a decent operating system. Today's cars have more electronics than any computer and more teething problems.

With auto companies it is like trying to redesign an aircraft while it is in flight. They are being forced to innovate by government regulators and compete against government subsidized companies like Tesla and Kia.

Early adopters can expect problems and the same thing happened with the shift away from toxic leaded gasoline in the 1970's. Cars became far less reliable with new emissions control systems that initially were analog and very crude. Check out a air hose diagram on a 1970's Toyota, any which could fail and bring the engine to its knees.

There will be a transition from 100% ICE to hybrid to plug-in hybrid to full electric over the next 10 years. The electric vehicles will be far cheaper to own and operate and going to a shop for an oil change or filter change or belt change or repairs to a gas or diesel engine will become a thing of the past, like having to re-gap the points on a distributor.