timing chain replacement
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 102
Likes: 7
From: Beamsville Ontario
timing chain replacement
Hey Guys
Just picked up my new timingset , got the milling doulble sprocket and roller set for my 360. Didnt come with the dowel in the cam sprocket. I guess the old one may be removable? If it is removable im guessing its pressed in, which way ? Hoping to save myself ...is it pressed in from the back or front? Also my manual shows a spacer behind the cam sprocket, mine doesnt have one , is that normal as the new milling set had a little note inside saying that some Fords have it and some dont???
thx
Ok I was able to remove the old dowel from the cam sprocket....new problem, used dowel is the same size as the new sprocket hole .310. The old sprocket measures closer to .300 so the dowell fits snug and sticks out a bit for the eccentric to catch onto.
Any help would be appreciated!
Just picked up my new timingset , got the milling doulble sprocket and roller set for my 360. Didnt come with the dowel in the cam sprocket. I guess the old one may be removable? If it is removable im guessing its pressed in, which way ? Hoping to save myself ...is it pressed in from the back or front? Also my manual shows a spacer behind the cam sprocket, mine doesnt have one , is that normal as the new milling set had a little note inside saying that some Fords have it and some dont???
thx
Ok I was able to remove the old dowel from the cam sprocket....new problem, used dowel is the same size as the new sprocket hole .310. The old sprocket measures closer to .300 so the dowell fits snug and sticks out a bit for the eccentric to catch onto.
Any help would be appreciated!
Last edited by chappy69; Feb 16, 2022 at 06:48 PM. Reason: update
Hotshot
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,255
Likes: 199
From: Phoenix, Az.
The dowel is supposed to stay in the camshaft. Then the sprocket slides over it. If no spacer was there than you probably don't need one. Once the set is installed just make sure the sprocket isn't touching the block around the cam.
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 102
Likes: 7
From: Beamsville Ontario
thx for the reply
Happy this isnt my daily driver, I likely wouldnt have been going anywhere for a while... I have been reading post / threads all day and there are a bunch of senarios when it comes to these FE engines. Seems the 60's engines had a different set up than the early 70'swhen it came to cam shaft sprockets,eccentric and dowels. Some people have Mcgiver'd it with shims and even ball bearings to make it work, gotta be something different I hope?
I believe mine is original 69 with the fixed dowel, .310 pressed into the cam sprocket .300, leaving enough sticking out to catch the eccentric and then when mounted slipped into the camshaft .310
The new sprocket has a .310 opening which matches the dowel and cam, now theres nothing holding the dowel place,it slides perfectly through the whole set up, accually with the dowell all the way into the camshaft its flush to the front of the sprocket, to short to catch the eccentric. Maybe there are specific cam sprockets for the old FE's? Or maybe I should go back to the single sprocket and roller chain?
Thx
Happy this isnt my daily driver, I likely wouldnt have been going anywhere for a while... I have been reading post / threads all day and there are a bunch of senarios when it comes to these FE engines. Seems the 60's engines had a different set up than the early 70'swhen it came to cam shaft sprockets,eccentric and dowels. Some people have Mcgiver'd it with shims and even ball bearings to make it work, gotta be something different I hope?
I believe mine is original 69 with the fixed dowel, .310 pressed into the cam sprocket .300, leaving enough sticking out to catch the eccentric and then when mounted slipped into the camshaft .310
The new sprocket has a .310 opening which matches the dowel and cam, now theres nothing holding the dowel place,it slides perfectly through the whole set up, accually with the dowell all the way into the camshaft its flush to the front of the sprocket, to short to catch the eccentric. Maybe there are specific cam sprockets for the old FE's? Or maybe I should go back to the single sprocket and roller chain?
Thx
Tuned
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 413
Likes: 52
You may get more responses posting on the FE forum here. In doing some research, it would appear that you need a dowel that is 1-5/8" long. Many of the dowels provided with chain sets are 1-1/2" and are not suitable for what you are doing. The dowels is primarily for correct positioning of the cam and sprocket and the the main connection of the sprocket to the cam is with the cam bolt. The pin is captured with the large hardened washer and will not come out. Some suggest using blue loctite on the pin and on the cam bolt. The torque is crucial to ensure that the sprocket does not come off. Some of the pictures of bent or damaged dowels are not due to dowel failure but to inadequate torque or the wrong washer being used. Pull the dowel and set the sprocket and eccentric in place and measure the depth. You want it long enough to capture the eccentric but you do not want it to protrude past the eccentric or the bolt will not tighten properly. Again, for better recommendations post your question in the FE section. Google searches are pretty effective as well.
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 102
Likes: 7
From: Beamsville Ontario
OK thx, I didnt notice that section! ill post over there too!
Man im having one H of of time explaining this,
the new cam sprocket doent come with a new dowel, so I remove the one from my original. It was pressed in the sprocket not the camshaft. since it was pressed in the cam sprocket it was sticking out enough to catch the eccentric and didnt bottom out in the camshaft .
New sprocket has larger dowel hole same diameter as camshaft and dowel. so theres nothing to hold it in and since its no longer fixed in the cam sprocket it seats to deep in the camshaft
Man im having one H of of time explaining this,
the new cam sprocket doent come with a new dowel, so I remove the one from my original. It was pressed in the sprocket not the camshaft. since it was pressed in the cam sprocket it was sticking out enough to catch the eccentric and didnt bottom out in the camshaft .
New sprocket has larger dowel hole same diameter as camshaft and dowel. so theres nothing to hold it in and since its no longer fixed in the cam sprocket it seats to deep in the camshaft
Spoiler
Tuned
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 413
Likes: 52
How long was the dowel from the original? From the reading, on a stock cam, the dowel seats fully in the cam. It then protrudes to capture the sprocket and the eccentric. From the picture it does not look you have the correct washer. It is supposed to be a hardened washer and I wouldn't expect to see evidence that the bolt has dug into the surface as your picture shows. Some sites suggest it doesn't need to be hardened but it should be thick - about 0.1". Here is some further information - https://www.diyford.com/ford-fe-engi...ltimate-guide/
I suspect that you have the wrong dowel. If the dowel is not long enough conceivably it could work its way into the cam and out of the sprocket. The dowel should be hardened. You could mock something up with a piece of wood at a length of 1-5/8" and see if that fits. Note that the washer captures about 1/2 of the diameter of the dowel so once installed the dowel will not come out the front. Please measure the dowel that you currently have and we can go from there.
I suspect that you have the wrong dowel. If the dowel is not long enough conceivably it could work its way into the cam and out of the sprocket. The dowel should be hardened. You could mock something up with a piece of wood at a length of 1-5/8" and see if that fits. Note that the washer captures about 1/2 of the diameter of the dowel so once installed the dowel will not come out the front. Please measure the dowel that you currently have and we can go from there.
Logistics Pro
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,774
Likes: 860
From: Foothills of NC
I was just reading where Ford used two different length dowels on the FE. A longer dowel for the earlier engines that had a one piece fuel pump eccentric, and a shorter one for the two piece unity that had a tang that fitted into the dowel hole in the camshaft.
It appears most people put a ball bearing in the cam to space the dowel out, or made a longer dowel out of a grade 8 bolt or rod.
Read this:
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...n-a-360-a.html
This:
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/8...p-answers.html
And this: Read post #5 closely:
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/3...ear-dowel.html
It appears most people put a ball bearing in the cam to space the dowel out, or made a longer dowel out of a grade 8 bolt or rod.
Read this:
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...n-a-360-a.html
This:
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/8...p-answers.html
And this: Read post #5 closely:
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/3...ear-dowel.html
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Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 102
Likes: 7
From: Beamsville Ontario
Well my dowell is 1.5" and .310 dia. and like the one post said the dowell was a pressed fit into the cam sprocket, just leaving an 1/8 " enough for the eccentric , and didnt bottom out in the camshaft when installed.
The washer on the eccentric is exactly .1 thick.
as yard bird said could have a longer dowel made say 1 9/16 or so to catch the eccentric but then whats going to hold the dowel in place, "other than maybe not my 1st choice locktite" since all 3 pieces are .310
old cam sprocket dowel dia .300
Dowel 1.5 x .310
new cam cam sprocket dowel .310 dia
eccentric dowel .310 dia
Maybe tomorrow ill get a 5/16 grade 8 bolt cut it to proper length, flush with the eccentric outside , and install a big thick washer over the dowell and bolt'r up?
The washer on the eccentric is exactly .1 thick.
as yard bird said could have a longer dowel made say 1 9/16 or so to catch the eccentric but then whats going to hold the dowel in place, "other than maybe not my 1st choice locktite" since all 3 pieces are .310
old cam sprocket dowel dia .300
Dowel 1.5 x .310
new cam cam sprocket dowel .310 dia
eccentric dowel .310 dia
Maybe tomorrow ill get a 5/16 grade 8 bolt cut it to proper length, flush with the eccentric outside , and install a big thick washer over the dowell and bolt'r up?
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Tuned
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 413
Likes: 52
The dowel doesn't need to be held in place but you could use some loktite in the cam if you want. The bolt is what transfers the load and why the torque is so critical. The dowel is primarily for crank/cam alignment in an FE. The magic number for the dowel length is 1-5/8. You might want to find some dowel stock rather than modifying a bolt. Sounds like you have a good plan to move forward.
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 102
Likes: 7
From: Beamsville Ontario
Wow thx, that kind of make sense with the torque, so your saying once everything is line up and torqued the dowel dosent serve a purpose? I assumed the dowel served the same as a keyway , say in the crank sprocket below? Must not be much torque on that cam gear plus eccentric if the bolt is the only thing holding?
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 102
Likes: 7
From: Beamsville Ontario
update,
Couldnt find the proper length dowel 5/16 X 1 5/8" so i made a call to the local machine shop. He sent me to https://www.mcmaster.com/ and they have a whack of stuff! Ordered the exact size ( +an extra) under $4 and decent shipping charges as well.
Couldnt find the proper length dowel 5/16 X 1 5/8" so i made a call to the local machine shop. He sent me to https://www.mcmaster.com/ and they have a whack of stuff! Ordered the exact size ( +an extra) under $4 and decent shipping charges as well.
Logistics Pro
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,774
Likes: 860
From: Foothills of NC
update,
Couldnt find the proper length dowel 5/16 X 1 5/8" so i made a call to the local machine shop. He sent me to https://www.mcmaster.com/ and they have a whack of stuff! Ordered the exact size ( +an extra) under $4 and decent shipping charges as well.
Couldnt find the proper length dowel 5/16 X 1 5/8" so i made a call to the local machine shop. He sent me to https://www.mcmaster.com/ and they have a whack of stuff! Ordered the exact size ( +an extra) under $4 and decent shipping charges as well.
Good deal. Glad you were able to find one.
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 102
Likes: 7
From: Beamsville Ontario
Hey Guys, I was just inspecting my new cam sprocket and noticed its a tad larger than the original. Is this normal. The old one is a single and the new is a double roller..Im guessing maybe thats how much the nylon has worn over the years?
Last edited by chappy69; Feb 22, 2022 at 11:02 AM. Reason: added info and pics
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