Reviving this old thread.

I drove my 450 from new on the stock HD3 conti's for 30K miles. They were absolutely dead smooth at any speed. Truck always ran straight with no appreciable wander. The fronts wore poorly, but still always ran smooth. I rotated fronts several times. I never rotated the rears and they showed surprisingly little wear. I never re-balanced anything, as the truck always drove smoothly.

As the fronts began to lose significant chunks of tread, it became time to replace (but it still drove perfectly). Given that I was unhappy with the rare needed off road performance of the conti's, I chose to replace all six. I went with the Michelin Aegilis HD Grip D.

I purchased from a major tire retailer I have used for decades. I did note the truck ran smooth in its present form, and could take them for a test run if need be as I have seen plenty of threads over the years with people that have struggled with 19.5's. I asked if they were confident they could balance 19.5's. They assured me they could and noted they do 19.5's almost everyday. So, I committed.

When I drove the truck home, it started to shake around 45mph, and very badly above 60.

When I got home I noticed no wheel weights.

I went back the next day, reported the experience and inquired.

It was then I was informed their equipment did not work well with 19.5's, so they used media. I was then assured this was the very best way to balance 19.5's. After the retailer discussed with Michelin, they were told they should have doubled the amount of media. So, they doubled the media and re-mounted. If anything that made it worse.

After discussing with the GM, he said their equipment could in fact balance the 19.5's and they would do that.

Truck drove significantly better. The steering wheel shake was gone, but truck still shook considerably. It felt like it was coming off the rear. Further discussions with the GM revealed, they could not get the inner steel rims properly on their machine, so they were not balanced. He sent me to a truck place to balance those. They have made two attempts. One on the 4 rears and the next attempt on all six. Truck still shakes. Between 65-80 it is very prominent. Very frustrated. I spent a lot of money on a premium tire that has made my truck drive poorly... not to mention the several disrupted days trying to solve this problem.

After reading Y2K's post, maybe I need to call around and ask who uses a Haweka adapter??

Y2KW57, what response did you get from the tech when you showed his balancing attempt was unsuccessful?

One way or another, this truck needs to run smoothly.

 

What responses did I get from the tech?

Amazement. Disbelief. Entire shop tech huddles around the balancing machine. Re-attempts. Bets lost. Some "Whoa's" and another 3 letter acronym beginning with "W."

What exact size HD Grip D tires do you have? 225/70R19.5? Or 245/70R19.5?

 

Thanks for the response. I stayed with factory spec of 225/70.

 

You have a 2021, so the original tires that you replaced did not age out. Did you keep ANY of those original tires? We only need two tires for the following idea...

That idea is this: Pull the Grip D's off of the front axle for the time being, and replace them with your old tires that you did not have the issues that you are presently having, and run them for a while to see if you notice any difference.

If all your old tires are gone, then ask the tire shop you are working with to set aside two take off steer tires for you next time they do a set of 19.5" tires. They will likely give them to you to satisfy their own curiosity, as well as to absolve them of any liability for selling you used tires.

It seems doubtful that your issue is emanating from the rear drive tires, though not possible to debate when you report that it feels that way. Far be it for some y2k yahoo on the internet to try and tell you what you felt... so bear with me for moment longer. We may need to look beyond the new tires to diagnose what you are experiencing. because the root cause could be a concurrence of contributing factors, which when considered individually may seem of little consequence, but when the constellation of these simultaneously occurring causes are contemplated as a whole, the dots could potentially connect to point to a cause.

An example of multiple coincidental factors could be

1. the ball and steering joints are more worn at 33,000 miles than they were when the truck was new (not significant in isolation, but when added to...)

2. the tread blocks on the Grip D tires are taller than the HD3 tires, and the sipes in the Grip D tires zig zag into their depth, not just across the tread plane... hence new tire tread squirm... (not significant in isolation, but when added to...)

3. the brake rotors have been in service for 5 years now, and if they were exposed to conditions that would cause them to warp, that warpage can manifest in symptoms similar to what you have described (not significant in isolation, but when added to...)

4. the production process of manufacturing tires can have hiccups, where even if a tire is well designed with more than a decades long reputation in the field, a machine stumbled on the day your specific tire was made, and that particular tire is so far out of balance, it exacerbates the "insignificant" factors above in a manner that would not be as detectable were it not for the coincidence of those multiple contributing factors.

The foregoing is just a "for instance" thought example, not a diagnosis. To these examples, we could add more insignificant contributions, like shock absorber wear, or an addition of weight bias aft of axle, none of which mean much individually, but all of which when considered together could conspire toward depreciation of the smooth ride previously enjoyed during the first 30K miles.

However, speaking to point #4, have you noted the serial number to each tire, and marked each tire in a more visible manner so as to easily and repeatedly distinguish one from the other, and then moved the tires around to different wheel positions, to see if the repositioning of the tires has any effect on the symptoms you are experiencing?

This is much harder (and costlier) to do with OEM aluminum wheels, where two are polished outside, two are polished inside, and three are steel, and where the hub land on the rear axle isn't wide enough to run swap the steel wheels to the front axle temporarily and run all four aluminum wheels on the back for purposes of testing for any faulty tires.

I'm going to be in your shoes very soon, running Grip D's on the front axle, contravening best practices to use steer tires on the front axle. Notably, Michelin allows, in writing, the Grip D tires to be used on the front drive axle, but that writing is limited to less visible documentation, with the caveat of "certain regional and on/off road applications" which arguably would apply to a lot of personal pickup uses (as opposed to urban stop start parcel delivery, or over the road highway use).

Therefore, I have some personal skin in your game, and will be standing by as you continue to strive toward satisfaction.

 

Thanks, Y2KW57.

I traffic just a few forums, but they all share 2 things. First, I am interested in the subject matter. And second, there is a core group of very knowledgeable contributors who are willing to post regularly and in great detail a wealth of information. On this fine message board, there is no greater example of this than Y2K. So, thank you for that.

As far as your suggestions as to causes, I am considering those as well as driveshaft and perhaps a wheel is bent (actually, I did not think of rotors and appreciate the idea).

My best argument against those is the mantra of the very best wrench guy I have known who is also a lifelong friend. He is known as 'The Wizard' for his problem solving abilities in a circle of career experts across numerous powersports. His mantra... "If you have a new problem right after you worked on something, check what you worked on until you figure out what you did wrong." In fairness to your suggestions, he will often mutter under his breath, "It could also be one of the coincidences I don't believe in".

As you point out, I would love to move tires around to check the effect. Ford made that prospect as difficult as possible with the 450 pick up. I may switch the fronts and outer rears.

To answer your question: No, I do not have the old tires.

Ultimately, I would prefer steer tires on the front. However, when I very rarely travel offroad, I do need the additional traction of the drive tire in front. As you noted, I checked regarding using this drive tire on the front, as the factory did with the Continentals. I was told my front axle is technically also a drive axle so it was "approved", but that wearability and lane-keeping would be worse, and a steer or all-posttion tire would be recommended. I was willing to take the chance. Interestingly, the truck drives absolutely arrow straight with these and it did with the conti's, as well.

Changing out the fronts is definitely on the table. And if that worked, I would simply sacrifice the traction for smoothness. But the shake truly does feel like it comes from the rear. When it had the beads in it, you could feel the shake in the front as well, including in the steering wheel. When the tires were spin balanced, the front seemed to go smooth and no more shake in the steering wheel. I have taken a few knowledgeable people for a ride for opinions. When I have asked without using a leading question, 2 confidently said the rear, one said probably the rear. But until the problem is solved, there is no issue off the table.

I spoke to a Ford dealer today that services a lot of 450/550 fleet vehicles, and does tires in-house. I gave him a brief run down. He thinks they can balance them out. I may run it in to them and give it a try.

I will keep you closely advised as to the results.

Just as an FYI, I have tried numerous different PSI's between 74 and 96. No change made it perceptibly better or worse.

 

Since you are suspecting the rear being the culprit, there are two things you can try: On the tire sidewall there will be a small yellow dot/circle. It should line up with the valve stem. In the rare case there is both a yellow and a red mark, the red should line up with the stem. Verify the front tires as well. If the marks are off, have it corrected and re-balanced.
The other thing to try is look at how the valve stems are positioned when the wheels are bolted to the axle. Ive had the best luck with the stems lined up together. Others have reported better balance with them opposite of each other. Try one position or the other and see if that helps. On my truck, even being off one hole causes a vibration.

 

This thread has been very interesting. I have a 22 450 with the original tires and always follow these discussions. My truck has also run with no vibrations since new and the topic of vibrations with tire purchases is always something I stay aware of.
I have discussed the front tires with my selling Ford dealer and they will match price on tires. They work on big trucks every day and assure me there would be no issue with install or balance, road force. Since I have had good luck with the Continental tires, I plan to replace with the same factory tires. The rear tires show hardly any wear and have not been touched. The fronts have been rotated during every 5k mile oil change. Appreciate the smooth ride especially after reading all the vibration threads. I am planning to run the front tires as long as possible. Good luck with your venture and keep us posted on the progress.

 

Thank you, Stryder. I appreciate the suggestions. I clocked the wheels 90 degrees, then 180. But when I did the rears, I clocked each side's pair together. From the factory the valve stems were together. Everybody that has worked on them through this ordeal has installed the rims with them opposite each other, probably to ease inflation. I will put them back and check. Would love for that to be the problem. I'll check the dots as well.

I'm thankful tor the opinions and expertise. I'll post all updates for anyone's interest.

 

I had about 75k on my original tires when I sold the truck. Still had plenty of tread and guess at least another 10k left on them . I also rotated and balanced them about every 10k . At about 30k I installed Centramatic balancers on the truck. Truck was always smooth rolling with no vibration. I also pulled a heavy 5th wheel about 24k around 20,000 miles of the near 75k . Never had any issues with the original Continental tires .

 

We dont always balance our 450, 550, 600, and semi wheels. No big deal.

My front right tire was changed in the tree lawn of the govermemts data center. No balance at all. Been fine for months.

Right now my rear duals are at least a full pound out of balance due to mud and gravel. (Im building yall a nice clean natural gas powerplant) Its a nice back massage after a tough long day. Im sure the fronts are messed up too. But im not crawlimg under there to see.

 

While match mounting the painted dots on the tire to specifically designated spots on the wheel is indeed a best practice for reducing vibrations of the first and second order... another tire mounting issue that is more apt to happen with 19.5" tires than even sized rim light truck tires is that the wheel can be seated eccentrically within the tire.

There are raised rib guidelines around the sidewall near the bead, just outside of the circumference of the wheel lip, that are useful to detect when a tire is not seated concentrically around the wheel. So when looking for valve stem clocking and dot clocking, also look at wheel lip to guide rib distancing around the wheel.

@stryder

On the topic of a tire's painted dot clocking, while the YELLOW dot on the tire is appropriate to clock with the valve stem hole, and while the RED dot is more significant and takes priority over the YELLOW dot, the two different color dots denote two different characteristics in the tire. Yellow denotes the tire's lightest weight spot, while RED denotes the tire's highest radial force variation.

Therefore, I would not clock the RED dot with the valve stem, especially on OEM wheels, which provide an indicator on the wheel on exactly where to clock the red dot.

I snapped a couple of photos of the OEM tires and wheels on my latest runabout, assembled by an automotive manufacturer with a world renowned reputation for consistent quality in manufacturing, that illustrate where the RED dot should be clocked, shown below.

@Keokie

Laying eyes on the dots the same as dotting your i's and crossing your t's. It takes a conscientious and unhurried tire jockey to take the time to match mount tires and wheels properly. It is an extra step, and extra steps repeated for each tire and wheel assembly accumulates into lost time.

Also, it is hard to have much hope that your dots will be correctly match mounted to your wheels, when the tire/wheel installers didn't even correctly align your dual rear wheel valves stems, which should be clocked together, not apart, as illustrated in the Ford Owner's Manual.



It isn't that tire jockeys are expected to open a customer's glove box and read the owner's manual. It is that Ford has produced the Ford F-450 and F-550 with dual rear wheel valve stems clocked together for almost 30 years, since the first Super Duty with 19.5" wheels was built back in 1998. Given that more than a quarter of a century has gone by with no changes in Ford OEM 19.5" dual rear wheel valve stem clocking... it seems strange that this tire shop managed to not encounter this before.

On where to clock the tire's red dots...

 

Thank you for that detailed explanation, I had no idea.

 

Wow! I had no idea of most of this either. Thanks for providing this.

I will definitely make sure the valve stems are clocked at the same place. Interestingly, I could not find any red or yellow dots anywhere on the tires??

 

I just recently ordered a set of seven of the exact tires that you have. I've seen them stacked in the warehouse waiting for me, but I just haven't had time to get to them yet, and won't until Thursday or Friday, when I will check the to see if these have the painted red dot or not. The last ones I received did. But one never knows what changes with time.

The DOT codes are all 2026, and the distribution center had a over a 100 of them on hand two weeks ago when I ordered them, so despite the price, it is an extremely popular 19.5" tire, making it all the less likely for the tires to be the cause of what you are experiencing.

The thread title begs the question: Are you running Centramatics?

If you are, AND you were running beads in the tires, then that would explain your initial problems, but would not necessarily explain your continuing problems after you had the beads removed, unless not all of the beads were removed.

Centramatic balancers will work with fixed wheel weights just fine. However, using two different diameters of dynamic balancers that self distribute at speeds will fight each other.

Beads in the tire distribute at a different radius from center than shot beads in the Centramatic balancer. Therefore, the media within each balancer is distributing at different speeds, as the orbit of the tire beads is further away from rotational center than the orbit of the Centramatic BB's. This is a case where one has to choose one or the other.

This may not apply to you, because it isn't clear whether or not you have Centramatics. You've mentioned considering them in the past, but what you have at present is not known. Still, since you did confirm that you had bags of balance beads in the tires, which you ultimately were not happy with, it seemed like a good idea to mention the incompatibility between concurrent use of multiple dynamic balance solutions operating at substantially different orbits around the same rotational axis.

Wheel weights are fine when used with either, because wheel weights are fixed. Not using wheel weights is also ok with either.

 

I am not currently running centramatics, but am completely open to trying them if necessary. That's what drew me to the thread. I agree with your sentiment that a premium high volume tire is unlikely to be the problem.

I did question my original tire shop about effectively removing all the balance beads. I was assured they were completely removed with a shop vac. There is no way I can really think of to verify without pulling a tire off the rim.

Weird about the dots on the tires. I will be very curious to hear if yours have them. I have seen the dots on tires before, but there were none on these. There are also none on the Goodyear G614's I have on one trailer nor the Deestone Bias RIB's I have on another trailer. And the cars in the garage... no dots. I have other vehicles and trailers to check, and will certainly do so.

I did take the truck to the Ford dealer who claimed vast experience with 19.5's and said they could get them to run smooth. We will see. Should be ready tomorrow. I did ask them to spin them before pulling the current weights off and give me the results. I was emphatic about that and he agreed to make sure the tech entered the results in the notes. Hate to be cynical about it, but since my lovely bride was with me and heard the conversation, I made a small bet with her that there would be no such notes, and a deer in the headlights look before a contrived answer when I ask about it. I very much hope she wins.

I will update with results and appreciate all thoughts, ideas, experiences, etc.