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Which pump and steering box?

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Old Jan 12, 2022 | 01:18 PM
  #31  
pirate4x4_camo's Avatar
pirate4x4_camo
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Originally Posted by 1atlas
HI Pirate4x4. I posted up a bit in the responses above but will re-post here with more info. Thank you for your responses!

I have a 2000 Excursion, 6.8V10, 6 inch lift on 38x15.50 MT tires and 160K miles. I have much dead zone steering and wandering on roads and difficulty to steer at rest, especially when aired down. The pump whines quite a bit when using 4WD off-road.
I use my rig for over-landing and off-roading, but not for seroius rock crawling. I do air down to 10psi to run on snow and sand and moderate trails. Also, air up for long road trips to Moab to drive on trails like "Fins and Things".
nice.

lets start off with the problems.
dead zone. Not sure exactly what you are feeling but it is likely in the steering gear. If you describe it further maybe i can guess better

wandering, this must be fixed first.
likely culprits are alignment and or worn wheel bearings, ball joints TRE, gear ect.

steering at rest, you should always be rolling when you are turning unless you are doing some extreme rockcrawling but at this point not only are you going to need much more steering power but stronger components from the frame to ball joints and, well basically everything.Turning at a standstill is just not in the cards for the excursion. At least not for the scope of this website or what it would take for me to sit down and write it up.
if this is really what you are after and ready to spend $100,000+ hit me up and i will steer you to the right people.

ram assist,
I run 40’s and no ram because i just haven’t gotten around to installing it on my ex yet but have owned and built many.
with a fresh box and new pump your steering should be adequate for street use, the down side is it wears out all of your steering parts quicker. From Ball joints to the box. But is especially hard on the sector shaft and sector shaft bushing, add in some trail wheeling and now you have a real real risk of breaking the sector shaft, this is the main reason for adding a ram assist. Yes it adds power and that is an obvious benefit at slow speed steering but the main reason is it takes the load off the sector shaft and the steering gear and frame. Because ripping a box off the frame or breaking a sector shaft on a trail is a chore. ( it is a great adventure but to be honest more fun to tell the stories afterwards than actually dealing with it )

With ram steering your steering box will last longer but everything down stream from the ram will wear out quicker.
 
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Old Jan 12, 2022 | 01:23 PM
  #32  
pirate4x4_camo's Avatar
pirate4x4_camo
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Joined: Apr 2011
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From: Northern California
Originally Posted by 1atlas
HI Pirate4x4.


reasonable performaning middle option as well. Thanks!

me thinks
red/blue ported box
psc ram
new stock pump
go

and to fix your wander
replace all worn steering related parts with Motorcraft , spicer, timken

alignment
caster + 5*
camber 0
toe in + .03*

edit. carry a spare unit bearing or ditch them in favor of standard wheel bearings, aka freespin kit

your unit bearings hate you and your 38’s
and a ram, the extra power is a known unit bearing killer.
 
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Old Jan 12, 2022 | 02:28 PM
  #33  
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1atlas
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Originally Posted by pirate4x4_camo
nice.

lets start off with the problems.
dead zone. Not sure exactly what you are feeling but it is likely in the steering gear. If you describe it further maybe i can guess better


wandering, this must be fixed first.
likely culprits are alignment and or worn wheel bearings, ball joints TRE, gear ect.

steering at rest, you should always be rolling when you are turning unless you are doing some extreme rockcrawling but at this point not only are you going to need much more steering power but stronger components from the frame to ball joints and, well basically everything.Turning at a standstill is just not in the cards for the excursion. At least not for the scope of this website or what it would take for me to sit down and write it up.
if this is really what you are after and ready to spend $100,000+ hit me up and i will steer you to the right people.

ram assist,
I run 40’s and no ram because i just haven’t gotten around to installing it on my ex yet but have owned and built many.
with a fresh box and new pump your steering should be adequate for street use, the down side is it wears out all of your steering parts quicker. From Ball joints to the box. But is especially hard on the sector shaft and sector shaft bushing, add in some trail wheeling and now you have a real real risk of breaking the sector shaft, this is the main reason for adding a ram assist. Yes it adds power and that is an obvious benefit at slow speed steering but the main reason is it takes the load off the sector shaft and the steering gear and frame. Because ripping a box off the frame or breaking a sector shaft on a trail is a chore. ( it is a great adventure but to be honest more fun to tell the stories afterwards than actually dealing with it )

With ram steering your steering box will last longer but everything down stream from the ram will wear out quicker.
-- Basically play in the wheel. Turn the wheel 5 degrees or so in either direction while going straight and no turning response.
-- I had new cassette bearings/hubs put in (Spicer) as well as all new tie rods and rod ends and joints. I have not changed the ball joints.
-- This could be partly due to the tires. Patagonias are made to run higher pressure, on the middle rib at highway speeds. I can try to lower the pressure to create more contact. I'm sure a flatter tires will change this a bit.



Originally Posted by pirate4x4_camo
me thinks
red/blue ported box
psc ram
new stock pump
go

and to fix your wander
replace all worn steering related parts with Motorcraft , spicer, timken

alignment
caster + 5*
camber 0
toe in + .03*

edit. carry a spare unit bearing or ditch them in favor of standard wheel bearings, aka freespin kit

your unit bearings hate you and your 38’s
and a ram, the extra power is a know unit bearing killer.
With the red/blue ported box, psc ram and new stock pump, will a reservoir or cooler be needed as well? I know i can easily add a cooler.
I assume the double steering stabilizers should be removed?
I for sure will be adding a 5 degree Camber spacer.
Unit bearing I assume is the cassette bearing? I never heard of a freespin kit. I'm still learning...

Thank you !!!
 

Last edited by 1atlas; Jan 12, 2022 at 02:36 PM. Reason: formatting
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Old Jan 12, 2022 | 02:43 PM
  #34  
pirate4x4_camo's Avatar
pirate4x4_camo
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 8,259
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From: Northern California
Originally Posted by 1atlas
-- Basically play in the wheel. Turn the wheel 5 degrees or so in either direction while going straight and no turning response.
-- I had new cassette bearings/hubs put in (Spicer) as well as all new tie rods and rod ends and joints. I have not changed the ball joints.
-- This could be partly due to the tires. Patagonias are made to run higher pressure, on the middle rib at highway speeds. I can try to lower the pressure to create more contact. I'm sure a flatter tires will change this a bit.





With the red/blue ported box, psc ram and new stock pump, will a reservoir or cooler be needed as well? I know i can easily add a cooler.
Unit bearing I assume is the cassette bearing? I never heard of a freespin kit. I'm still learning...

Thank you !!!
yes a cooler and a reservoir is needed but the stock units should work fine.

your front wheel bearings are integrated into a non serviceable hub called a unit bearing. It is a notoriously weak link.

in fact to me the biggest advantage of swapping in the 05 dana 60 isn’t because it is a linked coul spring dusprnsion or stronger ring and pinion or even the bigger brakes. The bigger and stronger unit bearing locking is the star of that show, along with the steering gear with its larger stronger sector shaft on the steering gear.

in fact, Being close the the same cost I would swap to 05 front axle before doing a ram. Just a thought.

edit.

issues you will to address with 05 snd 6” lift.
track bar is the critical one.

links, you will want a 4 link setup over the stock links.

dropped track bar bracket and pitman arm
this is your fatal flaw with the 6” lift and aside from reducing center of gravity why you should stick to a 4”

 
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Old Jan 12, 2022 | 03:08 PM
  #35  
pirate4x4_camo's Avatar
pirate4x4_camo
Lead Driver
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 8,259
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From: Northern California
Originally Posted by 1atlas
-- Basically play in the wheel. Turn the wheel 5 degrees or so in either direction while going straight and no turning response.
-- I had new cassette bearings/hubs put in (Spicer) as well as all new tie rods and rod ends and joints. I have not changed the ball joints.
-- This could be partly due to the tires. Patagonias are made to run higher pressure, on the middle rib at highway speeds. I can try to lower the pressure to create more contact. I'm sure a flatter tires will change this a bit.

Thank you !!!
play in the wheel.
engine off, there should be about 1” of “play” in the wheel. This is the torsion spring in your steering gear that opens and closes the hydraulic ports in the steer gear box that activate the “power” in your power steering. There are stiffer and lighter springs available to tune the box accordingly. But this is not your problem
your sector shaft bushing is wasted snd this creates to much backlash at the worm gear. Adjusting the box will result in ruining your core unless you rebush the case first

Patagonia's are crap.
 
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Old Jan 12, 2022 | 08:07 PM
  #36  
1atlas's Avatar
1atlas
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Originally Posted by pirate4x4_camo
yes a cooler and a reservoir is needed but the stock units should work fine.

your front wheel bearings are integrated into a non serviceable hub called a unit bearing. It is a notoriously weak link.

in fact to me the biggest advantage of swapping in the 05 dana 60 isn’t because it is a linked coul spring dusprnsion or stronger ring and pinion or even the bigger brakes. The bigger and stronger unit bearing locking is the star of that show, along with the steering gear with its larger stronger sector shaft on the steering gear.

in fact, Being close the the same cost I would swap to 05 front axle before doing a ram. Just a thought.

edit.

issues you will to address with 05 snd 6” lift.
track bar is the critical one.

links, you will want a 4 link setup over the stock links.

dropped track bar bracket and pitman arm
this is your fatal flaw with the 6” lift and aside from reducing center of gravity why you should stick to a 4”
Excellent responses and thank you again! I know have direction to head for the steering issue. Also, I'll run what I have for now and will eye the 05 Dana 60 in the future.
 
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Old Jan 12, 2022 | 08:12 PM
  #37  
1atlas's Avatar
1atlas
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Joined: May 2021
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Originally Posted by pirate4x4_camo
play in the wheel.
engine off, there should be about 1” of “play” in the wheel. This is the torsion spring in your steering gear that opens and closes the hydraulic ports in the steer gear box that activate the “power” in your power steering. There are stiffer and lighter springs available to tune the box accordingly. But this is not your problem
your sector shaft bushing is wasted snd this creates to much backlash at the worm gear. Adjusting the box will result in ruining your core unless you rebush the case first

Patagonia's are crap.
Thanks again for advice this for it clarifies my understanding. This is my third set of Patagonia's. ;-) Recently I purchased 35" Nitto Trail Grapple's for my wife's FJ, to replace the Patagonia's. The Grapple's are certainly better than the Patagonia's, but more expensive as well, but worth it. In regards to the Excursion with Patagonia's, I could not pass up the price at the time at $269 each. The savings was used for re-gearing and the lift etc. Future tires choice will different. ;-)
 
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Old Jan 12, 2022 | 08:17 PM
  #38  
pirate4x4_camo's Avatar
pirate4x4_camo
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Joined: Apr 2011
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From: Northern California
I missed the steering stabilizer question,

No steering stabilizer needed with ram.
you should remove the duals even without a ram.

if you think you need duals what you really have is worn steering components
 
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Old Jan 12, 2022 | 08:34 PM
  #39  
1atlas's Avatar
1atlas
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Originally Posted by pirate4x4_camo
I missed the steering stabilizer question,

No steering stabilizer needed with ram.
you should remove the duals even without a ram.

if you think you need duals what you really have is worn steering components
Agreed! I was misguided on those. The idea was to reduce torque steer when hitting rocks. They are probably just putting more load on the steering setup.
 
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