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Didn’t see this thread till late last night. I will off suggestions from past experiences of removing broken/damaged bolts.
Rust can be INCREDIBLY powerful and strong, hence why I am a big believer of products such as Anti Seize and Loctite on any bolt that I re install.
Soaking the bolt is key as well as heat on the parent material to try to get the material to expand and get the rust to release it’s grip. You must be very careful with torches as I have seen more damage done in the wrong hands with over eager operators
The key thing to do when drilling out a broken bolt is center punch a drill starting point that is a close to the center as possible. This needs to be done to prevent drill wander into the surrounding material. If it is a bolt I have a set of LEFT handed colbalt drill bits. The advantage to these is that they spin counterclockwise which is pressuring the bolt to try and unscrew itself.
I always start with small bits and work my way up. I do not like using carbide tipped cement drills as once a piece of these break in the hole you need the EDM machine that Jack referred to. Carbide is one tough material.
The quality of the bit is key here as well. If you can find an industrial supplier they should be able to assist. One of the brand names is “Huot”.
Can you post a photo please.
If you want you can PM me your cell number and I can talk/text you direct and try to provide assistance.
The quality of the bit is key here as well. If you can find an industrial supplier they should be able to assist. One of the brand names is “Huot”.
Rob
Question Rob -
To get a high quality Cobalt drill bit, is it more important to get an M42 composition, vs the M35, or is it more important to go with a quality brand of bit (or are both important)?
Also, is there a large amount of variability (across the brands) in how resistant the M42 bits are to breakage?
Rob's mention of left-handed bits (I have them) is more towards when a threaded section is broken into an internally threaded item. In this case of the shank, it can be right-hand.
I'll add my views - M42's are brittle, Mark, more problematic if you are side loading as you occasionally do with a hand drill. So from my perspective, the M35 is the highest for a hand drill, and I still would not. M7 is less prone to break but needs resharpening, but what I'd rather use for this, along with the bit being short. Doing this is always problematic, especially when you are not well versed and don't resharpen bits yourself or have a Drill Doctor or something like it. Or experience resharpening freehand. And the breaking of a bit, extractor, or tap goes exponentially worse, which is why drilling out a bolt is always a high risk to me, and rather use non-cobalt drills. Drilling out broken bolts always freaks me out.
I don't see Ron doing this, but for informational purposes, I had to use it one time remotely, and it worked well. Although they are really a carbide burr and are prone to breaking, too. And it can wander like crazy.
Quality/brand name are very important in drill selection as this impacts on how the drill is actually sharpened/manufactured. Split points actually help the drill "cut" for lack of a better description. I actually have mini needle files(regular and diamond coated) to physically sharpen these split points/webs
As a M35 is slightly softer than an M42 I would lean towards the M35 as this is being done with a hand drill and the chances of sideways movement are high so the chances of breaking a drill are increased.
I am not sure on the amount of variability (across the brands) in how resistant the M42 bits are to breakage.
Drill bits are important but HOW the drilling is done is equally if not more important. Using oil to lubricate the drill bit, cleaning the hole out, drill speeds, adding torch heat, penetrating oil prior to trying to drill etc. prior experience from past attempts all affect the outcome.
Jack-Just saw your update and agree on all points. Drill sharpening is tricky and takes a lot of practice. I have broken an easy out once and it was awful to get removed.
Ron- Back to your root issue. If the 4 bolts do not readily drill out I would not give up on the vehicle. I would start soaking the exhaust manifolds in preperation of removing them. After soaking I would start to use an impact socket(3/8 drive) and see if they will start to loosen. Only start and if the bolt does not begin go back for another round of soaking with penetrating oil. The reason I use an impact socket is that they are much more rigid and will not flex as much. When a socket is working it is deflecting. Less deflection increases the chances of the bolt coming loose or if it does not breakage will occur. Hence why I mention only starting to see if it will loosen. You can also try to tighten the bolt SLIGHTLY to attempt to break the rust bond loose.
I would not give up on the vehicle yet. Please keep us posted on the outcome. Help is here if you need
I didn't choose that Bonehead avatar for nothing. While I often exceed my limitations, I do know that I'm doing so and accept the risk and, importantly, the consequences.
The real problem here is (Jack knows)...this is an Eseries. The recommended next step as soon as I cut those bolts and saw that shank still stuck would be to yank the manifolds and get a machine shop to drill them out. No problem, good as new.
But, those manifold bolts look as rusted as these - my first experience with rust that you Northerners prolly deal with all the time. If not rusted, they would be a pain to pull on this Eseries, but I could do it. But, if just one breaks, there's no way I can drill those out without yanking the engine on this Eseries - I expect.
It's just not worth it TO ME. And thanks, Rob, if I could have found those Hout bits, I might keep drilling, but I was going to run into issues with getting a drill into the space on a couple of the other bolts. The chances of getting lined up on center were nil. I've learned a lot from this, like I have from all the other disasters I've gotten myself into, but I'm still Bonehead, and lately Bonehead with Age-related Cognitive Decline, lol.
I'm thinking that my chances of "successfully" welding the pipes back together are high. I have an expert welder who is coming to the house in a couple of days to give it a try. Certainly, he could put a huge weld on it, but I'm hoping it can be closer to a tack weld and still hold. I'm thinking there's not a lot of internal pressure to push them apart; it's mostly vibration that will cause problems. But, I even have a spare set of down pipes from my salvaged ambulance in case I ever have to cut that weld to make a repair.
Yes, it's ugly; yes, I hate that all of y'all see this being done - I respect the expertise and precision y'all exhibit in making repairs. For me, it's just a business decision. I either cut my losses (not really, this truck was already profitable) and scrap this bus or weld it up and see if I can earn a few more dollars with it before that day does come. The only reason it's painful at all is that I pretty much stay broke all the time, living from trip to trip on the money I make hauling stuff, and after taking the summer off (too old/too hot), I'm in another of my cash flow binds.
And no reason to feel sorry for me - I'm not broke; I'm just not liquid. And, I've chosen to be this way. I could go suck corporate teat again and make a decent salary. I just got tired of that, and - most important to me - I'd have to leave my dog home alone. As long as he and I can get by on bread crumbs, we're happy. Or, I could hook up with a widow and live off the money some guy like y'all worked his tail off for - I've had several chase me, but they weren't that cute and their hubbys didn't save enough, lol. Hell, I could get SS - I was qualified for max benefits until I quit working 10 years ago and stil would get a decent paycheck, but I'm waiting as long as possible. My dad's 90 and I'm in good shape - I'll need as much as I can get from them someday.
So, I'm moving on, hopefully, if the weld works. I got a new question but am going to start a new thread, but y'all keep talking about this topic. I like learning this stuff.
Other than Rob mentioned Huot, I found Norseman, Chicago Latrobe, Precision Twist are all quality drill bit brands during my life. The Chicago Latrobe may be from Norseman, as said in different forums that Norseman private labels for other companies. McMaster is usually good, although brands are not named in the catalog.
I have done a fair amount of drilling out hardened screws/bolts/etc., but have only used the M35 bits (I have one set of Craftsman and one set of Milwaukee). I have replaced some from each set with 1-2 Irwin bits and 1-2 Drill America bits. I don't consider any of the bits I have to be "top tier" bits as far as quality goes. They do ok, but cutting fluid or paste is absolutely needed. Also, I find it very important to use the shortest bit possible! I only have hand tools at home, so the "side-loading" potential is a fact that I just have had to deal with.
I haven't been exactly thrilled with how fast the bits are dulled, so I was curious about the benefits of the higher Cobalt alloy, and whether or not some brands would resist breaking better than others. If I do buy any more Cobalt bits, it will be a higher-quality set of left-hand bits.
Irwin and Drill America are not bad, but it seems like DA products have different grades for the markets.
In the drill press, I have not problem using the Cobalts, and it's usually a situation opposite of a broken bolt. You can buy more material; you can weld up the hole and start again. As rob noted, I find the sharpening and design of the edge to be the best for both speed, quality, and endurance. Unfortunately, my days of sharpening drill bits by hand are narrowing with my vision. I've bought a drill doctor, but not overly thrilled. I always tend to use oil.
Videos about how to sharpen bits are as varied as oil threads—the same for the best consumer brands to purchase. I had the luxury of one of the countries top R&D machine shops a few hundred feet away in my early career to learn from. Finding a garage sale box of old bits and playing with them is the best way to improve, and I find if I haven't sharpened a bit in some time, I have to take some time to re-learn. I never did enough for the muscle memory to be there as a machinist would.
Not sure if you are familiar with him, but Project Farm does a good job on most of his evaluations, although as picky as I can be with "tests," there are a few cringe moments for me and a few I disagree with. But I tried some of the things he had tested and found the same truths, like Liquid Wrench being one step up from acetone and TF, although maybe that is more of a situation of what TF to use, such as the older formulations when the mixture first gained traction.
Some of his relevant videos to this thread, for anyone coming across it.
@ToolmakerRob has a good point about broken off carbide pieces. I remembered I had to chisel out broken tap because they're so hard to drill out.
On the carbide bits that I listed above, I used them before, that's why I recommended it. They all broke at the neck, not chipped off, so I didn't have any problem. I also used diamond bit. Both worked good. The diamond coated bits are slow, but steady and patient. The carbide bits are a bit hard to control. However, it drilled out super hard material. The one I did was almost knife level hardness. Almost every single time, start out with a good bit, and keep it cool is the way to drill. It's a problem when messing with a dull bit due to heat or whatever. When that happens to, a harder bit is needed, not a sharper one.
Like some suggested, welding a nut or something like that may work to loosen it up. It worked many times for me that way.
Welding cast iron is super hard sometimes, especially when it's attached to the engine. Things just start to cracks all over places if the heat is not controlled properly. Brazing is a better option, but I don't know if it's good for this application. Also, welding is very hard to control in term of surface sealing, and alignment. Heat distort a lot.
So just some input there for you Ron.
On the drill bit, I found that grinding it by hand works very well. But, I ended up with a drill doctor when a more precised hole is needed. I also found it very odd that I have better luck with 108 angle than 135 for harder to drill material such as stainless, although they recommended the opposite.
Jack-No worry, step on the toes anytime. I am sure myself and others appreciate any input. Any web that is a decent size needs a pilot hole to assist drilling. I always get a chuckle when I see guys in the shop pulling for dear life on a drill press handle with a 3/4" drill bit that they resharpened and did not relieve the webs.
Sharpening drill bits by hand is a learned skill that really helps if someone who is good at it guides you. A lot of people forget that you need to be slightly above the wheel centerline while rotating the drill bit. My problem is my eyes aren't as sharp as they used to be. Sharpening left hand drill bits takes a whole lot of thinking while rotating the drill bit. We have a drill doctor at work and so far I am not too impressed but it may just require some finessing.
Just so everyone knows it does help to use extra short drill bits if you are drilling out broken bolts. It takes a bit of practice to do these but they do not flex as much so there is less wander.
Welding cast iron is tricky as nickel rods usually required and low pre/post heat with a torch. Exhaust manifolds are extra tricky as they have been cold/hot stressed repeatedly.
Ron-if you are happy with your lifestyle then you have accomplished more than others have in the world. PS-I still wouldn't give up on drilling out the studs but I have been known to be as stubborn as a mule from time to time or so my family tells me.
I have had the Drill doctor for a few years, I feel like mixed results. I've done better in the past, but lack of clear focus is hurting many things I do.
Too late now, but I would have left some of the shank exposed as a hitting point. It will mushroom. But once you can get some travel, the mushroomed area can be removed. I feel that hitting the even or recessed surface mushrooms it tighter. There have been a lot of manifold ears broken off in the world.
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