Before i pull the trigger!
Thread Starter
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,613
Likes: 106
From: Albuquerque
Before i pull the trigger!
I have been trying to decide if i should just replace injectors, I already replaced the orings which helped with cold/long start issues But noting upon start i am getting a good puff of smoke again,
It goes away pretty fast, also having some performance issues, for the record i Believe i got some bad fuel, took out my orings in the 1st place, I am thinking may have harmed the injectors as well!
I.E. Runs great one start up and not so great the next, I have tried to look for loose wiring to no avail, I did replace the passenger side uvch harness on the passenger side but the other harness i have was damaged, will have to look at it again , can't remember what exactly was damaged
AM looking at this set from DCP andone have any experience with them?
https://dieselcare.store/collections...l-injectors-aa
Not really looking to go with bigger injectors prefer to keep it as stock as possible for reliability reasons
let me know what you all think!
It goes away pretty fast, also having some performance issues, for the record i Believe i got some bad fuel, took out my orings in the 1st place, I am thinking may have harmed the injectors as well!
I.E. Runs great one start up and not so great the next, I have tried to look for loose wiring to no avail, I did replace the passenger side uvch harness on the passenger side but the other harness i have was damaged, will have to look at it again , can't remember what exactly was damaged
AM looking at this set from DCP andone have any experience with them?
https://dieselcare.store/collections...l-injectors-aa
Not really looking to go with bigger injectors prefer to keep it as stock as possible for reliability reasons
let me know what you all think!
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 27,345
Likes: 5,941
From: Lake Hartwell, GA
My honest opinion is that I would NOT, absolutely NOT get any remanufactured injectors unless they were from Jim at Rosewood or Matt at Bitterroot. Even then, I am pretty hard pressed to get a remanufactured injector set. When it is my time, if it is ever my time, I will go with new Alliant AC's or maybe AD's just because I really like how my truck performs now with the 255,000 mile AD's.
These trucks are somewhat notorious for having a puff of smoke at start up. Are you sure you are not just seeing what it has always had? Not doubting you, just trying to help you make up your mind, since that is what you asked us to do.
We can help you with troubleshooting if you like and if you think you may have some more things to look at.
That is what I think. I hope some others provide some insight to what they think so that you can make an informed decision based on the experiences and lessons learned of others. In the end, you need to go with your gut feeling.
These trucks are somewhat notorious for having a puff of smoke at start up. Are you sure you are not just seeing what it has always had? Not doubting you, just trying to help you make up your mind, since that is what you asked us to do.
We can help you with troubleshooting if you like and if you think you may have some more things to look at.
That is what I think. I hope some others provide some insight to what they think so that you can make an informed decision based on the experiences and lessons learned of others. In the end, you need to go with your gut feeling.
Thread Starter
|
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,613
Likes: 106
From: Albuquerque
My honest opinion is that I would NOT, absolutely NOT get any remanufactured injectors unless they were from Jim at Rosewood or Matt at Bitterroot. Even then, I am pretty hard pressed to get a remanufactured injector set. When it is my time, if it is ever my time, I will go with new Alliant AC's or maybe AD's just because I really like how my truck performs now with the 255,000 mile AD's.
These trucks are somewhat notorious for having a puff of smoke at start up. Are you sure you are not just seeing what it has always had? Not doubting you, just trying to help you make up your mind, since that is what you asked us to do.
We can help you with troubleshooting if you like and if you think you may have some more things to look at.
That is what I think. I hope some others provide some insight to what they think so that you can make an informed decision based on the experiences and lessons learned of others. In the end, you need to go with your gut feeling.
These trucks are somewhat notorious for having a puff of smoke at start up. Are you sure you are not just seeing what it has always had? Not doubting you, just trying to help you make up your mind, since that is what you asked us to do.
We can help you with troubleshooting if you like and if you think you may have some more things to look at.
That is what I think. I hope some others provide some insight to what they think so that you can make an informed decision based on the experiences and lessons learned of others. In the end, you need to go with your gut feeling.
I guess another thing i should be asking : How do i use perdels, will it help me see what is going on with the injectors? Contribution test come back as a pass, but that's not really helping me see what's seems intermittent
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 27,345
Likes: 5,941
From: Lake Hartwell, GA
Sure thing sir!
PERDEL's are a PID and not a KOEO/KOER test like some of the other diagnostic tools are.
Check out this thread PERDEL Explained over in the 7.3L PSD Tech Folder.
Intermittent issues are the worst ones, I don't have to tell you that... I just don't want you spending so much time, effort and money on something that may not fix your issue. In the end though, a lot of people have resolved issues with intermittent running issues with new injectors. @JT250 and many others have first hand experiences with remanufactured injectors.
PERDEL's are a PID and not a KOEO/KOER test like some of the other diagnostic tools are.
Check out this thread PERDEL Explained over in the 7.3L PSD Tech Folder.
Intermittent issues are the worst ones, I don't have to tell you that... I just don't want you spending so much time, effort and money on something that may not fix your issue. In the end though, a lot of people have resolved issues with intermittent running issues with new injectors. @JT250 and many others have first hand experiences with remanufactured injectors.
Thread Starter
|
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,613
Likes: 106
From: Albuquerque
Sure thing sir!
PERDEL's are a PID and not a KOEO/KOER test like some of the other diagnostic tools are.
Check out this thread PERDEL Explained over in the 7.3L PSD Tech Folder.
Intermittent issues are the worst ones, I don't have to tell you that... I just don't want you spending so much time, effort and money on something that may not fix your issue. In the end though, a lot of people have resolved issues with intermittent running issues with new injectors. @JT250 and many others have first hand experiences with remanufactured injectors.
PERDEL's are a PID and not a KOEO/KOER test like some of the other diagnostic tools are.
Check out this thread PERDEL Explained over in the 7.3L PSD Tech Folder.
Intermittent issues are the worst ones, I don't have to tell you that... I just don't want you spending so much time, effort and money on something that may not fix your issue. In the end though, a lot of people have resolved issues with intermittent running issues with new injectors. @JT250 and many others have first hand experiences with remanufactured injectors.
I can spend some time on this today as i am working at home, Prepping materials for a job on monday.
I will ead through the perdels and see if i can capture some live data!
Thread Starter
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,613
Likes: 106
From: Albuquerque
Something very odd happened today , I was cruising behind a semi and had a chance to get around it so I massage the little pedal drops into passing gear and then dropped out and back in again , no lights came on I think I really need to get the oil pressure checked on this thing thinking ipr may have been an issue
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Cargo Master
Joined: Sep 2015
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I can tell you I have taken both paths, rebuilt and brand new. Rebuilt injectors seem to work ok for awhile but starting to have issues with them 2 years later on one of my trucks. After recently putting in new alliant ACs in my f350 I realized that is the way to go. That truck runs nice and smooth. If you can spring for a set of new injectors, whether its ACs or ADs, thats the way to go in my opinion. If your on a tight budget then the rebuilders sous mentioned above seem to have a good reputation 
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Hotshot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 12,782
Likes: 2,142
From: N.GA Mountains
Dieselcare might be the worst rebuilder and the list of poor rebuilders is loooong. That is why ‘rebuilt injectors’ have such a bad reputation.
Until Bitterroot started rebuilding 7.3 injectors for the public - I was DONE with rebuilders. Bad experiences with literally every one of them. They also sell new AC’s if that’s what ya really want. I’d spend that extra $550 on something else. ( BDP 160/30’s are $1300 shipped - new AC’s are 160/0 and are $1850? I think?)
New AC’s are not bench/flow tested. BDP remans are flow-matched to within a couple % of each other. No other rebuilder measures flow as accurately.
Until Bitterroot started rebuilding 7.3 injectors for the public - I was DONE with rebuilders. Bad experiences with literally every one of them. They also sell new AC’s if that’s what ya really want. I’d spend that extra $550 on something else. ( BDP 160/30’s are $1300 shipped - new AC’s are 160/0 and are $1850? I think?)
New AC’s are not bench/flow tested. BDP remans are flow-matched to within a couple % of each other. No other rebuilder measures flow as accurately.
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 27,345
Likes: 5,941
From: Lake Hartwell, GA
@SkySkiJason , correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the allure of new vs re-manufactured that not all of the parts internal to the injector will be new or replaced? I get that BDP performs flow testing and that each injector that leaves his shop is up to the task, but what about a year down the road when those slightly worn internal parts become fully worn parts and the injector begins to start it's path to failure?
Like you, we have seen re-manufactured injectors fail time and time again and we tend to recommend new because the internal parts are new, not replaced if they under perform or not replaced because they cannot be.
Maybe I am wrong on this, but I thought there were parts internal to the injector that could NOT be replaced or renewed, even when they were assured to be flow tested. If this is the case, I still think (in my opinion anyway) there is security in purchasing new and if they buyer is concerned, they could have them flow tested at BDP. Then they would have 100% new injectors that have been flow tested by the best equipment known to the market.
What say you good sir?
Like you, we have seen re-manufactured injectors fail time and time again and we tend to recommend new because the internal parts are new, not replaced if they under perform or not replaced because they cannot be.
Maybe I am wrong on this, but I thought there were parts internal to the injector that could NOT be replaced or renewed, even when they were assured to be flow tested. If this is the case, I still think (in my opinion anyway) there is security in purchasing new and if they buyer is concerned, they could have them flow tested at BDP. Then they would have 100% new injectors that have been flow tested by the best equipment known to the market.
What say you good sir?
Hotshot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 12,782
Likes: 2,142
From: N.GA Mountains
You aren’t wrong, but until we do a failure analysis of the rebuilt injectors - we won’t know if it is parts that have been re-used or just poor rebuilding techniques.
I believe some of the ‘popular’ rebuilders shim the armature plate instead of machining the parts for ideal clearance.
I also know that very few rebuilders bench test under simulated operating conditions or use calibration fluid. It is possible that some of the rebuilders that advertise minimum deviation between injectors are using a limited sample rate to attain that. There are a bunch of rebuilders out there that literally test nothing. But if you have a problem, have enough margins to ‘ship you another one’ right away.
I believe some of the ‘popular’ rebuilders shim the armature plate instead of machining the parts for ideal clearance.
I also know that very few rebuilders bench test under simulated operating conditions or use calibration fluid. It is possible that some of the rebuilders that advertise minimum deviation between injectors are using a limited sample rate to attain that. There are a bunch of rebuilders out there that literally test nothing. But if you have a problem, have enough margins to ‘ship you another one’ right away.
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 27,345
Likes: 5,941
From: Lake Hartwell, GA
You aren’t wrong, but until we do a failure analysis of the rebuilt injectors - we won’t know if it is parts that have been re-used or just poor rebuilding techniques.
I believe some of the ‘popular’ rebuilders shim the armature plate instead of machining the parts for ideal clearance.
I also know that very few rebuilders bench test under simulated operating conditions or use calibration fluid. It is possible that some of the rebuilders that advertise minimum deviation between injectors are using a limited sample rate to attain that. There are a bunch of rebuilders out there that literally test nothing. But if you have a problem, have enough margins to ‘ship you another one’ right away.
I believe some of the ‘popular’ rebuilders shim the armature plate instead of machining the parts for ideal clearance.
I also know that very few rebuilders bench test under simulated operating conditions or use calibration fluid. It is possible that some of the rebuilders that advertise minimum deviation between injectors are using a limited sample rate to attain that. There are a bunch of rebuilders out there that literally test nothing. But if you have a problem, have enough margins to ‘ship you another one’ right away.
The problem now that BDP has, is fighting to regain the confidence of the potential customers that have been told over and over that rebuilt injectors are a bad idea. I and most others realize that all rebuild shops are not the same in skill, materials, craftsmanship and taking care of the customer.
Again, thank you for your time and if/when my time comes for injectors, I will seriously consider BDP as the only alternative to new Alliant AC's.
Lead Driver
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,647
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From: north of Minneapolis, MN
Here's what I say. The has to be some sort of seat machined in to the injector body. How many cycles can that seat take before it fails? 2 million, 1 million, 500k? Let's just say it's 1 million. What do you suppose happens when the core injector has 950k on it when rebuilt?.....you get 50k cycles before it fails.....but it tested fine at 951k cycles. I chatted Rosewood about this years ago, thinking that it might be a revenue stream (re-machining injector bodies).
I will admit that I haven't sat down and studied what and where things wear on the injector body and what would need to be done to bring the body back to "as new".
I will admit that I haven't sat down and studied what and where things wear on the injector body and what would need to be done to bring the body back to "as new".
Hotshot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 12,782
Likes: 2,142
From: N.GA Mountains
My understanding is the poppet seal is the part that is not practical to replace.
The number of cycles can likely vary exponentially based on the service.
The poppet seal is a pass-fail test. BDP warranties this for 2yrs and would likely only need to replace the oil side parts if there was a failure.
There is no question ‘new’ is statistically better and the reputation the ‘big rebuilders’ have created turning out ****ty products is a real problem.
Rebuilt 160/30 are $1300 shipped.
New AC codes (160/0) are ~$1850 shipped. Add ~$400 for 30% nozzle upgrade.
So $950ish difference delta for apples to apples. Granted, an injector swap is worth more than that to some people - but I can probably change one in under an hour. At the campsite if needed.
We will have to track the failure rate of BDP remans to get a feel of whether it’s worth it to ‘gamble’ on them.
The number of cycles can likely vary exponentially based on the service.
The poppet seal is a pass-fail test. BDP warranties this for 2yrs and would likely only need to replace the oil side parts if there was a failure.
There is no question ‘new’ is statistically better and the reputation the ‘big rebuilders’ have created turning out ****ty products is a real problem.
Rebuilt 160/30 are $1300 shipped.
New AC codes (160/0) are ~$1850 shipped. Add ~$400 for 30% nozzle upgrade.
So $950ish difference delta for apples to apples. Granted, an injector swap is worth more than that to some people - but I can probably change one in under an hour. At the campsite if needed.
We will have to track the failure rate of BDP remans to get a feel of whether it’s worth it to ‘gamble’ on them.
