Starter Solenoid
Lead Driver
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 9,597
Likes: 1,172
From: San Jose, CA
Good to know, thanks. I wonder though, if maybe they're all connected like you say, but maybe have a diode of some kind in that circuit?
Isn't there a way with the proper meter to detect the presence of a diode? What would that take? I wonder if it's anything I've got handy.
I have a few relays of different brands around here I could play with. Including, if I can find it, the original one out of my '79. Pretty sure the original one from my '71 is long gone, but I know I kept the '79 as a spare when I changed it back in the late nineties.
Reason I'm asking all that is, am I not wrong in thinking that if the I post is directly connected to the Starter post, as you found, would there not be the danger of a short circuit as soon as you turned the key to ON? If that little tiny Brown wire was connected to the starter directly, wouldn't it just fry?
Or is there something about an electric motor that protects from that kind of fault?
Never tried connecting a starter motor to a 16 or 18 gauge wire and probably won't anytime soon, but am always interested in learning.
Thanks
Paul
Isn't there a way with the proper meter to detect the presence of a diode? What would that take? I wonder if it's anything I've got handy.
I have a few relays of different brands around here I could play with. Including, if I can find it, the original one out of my '79. Pretty sure the original one from my '71 is long gone, but I know I kept the '79 as a spare when I changed it back in the late nineties.
Reason I'm asking all that is, am I not wrong in thinking that if the I post is directly connected to the Starter post, as you found, would there not be the danger of a short circuit as soon as you turned the key to ON? If that little tiny Brown wire was connected to the starter directly, wouldn't it just fry?
Or is there something about an electric motor that protects from that kind of fault?
Never tried connecting a starter motor to a 16 or 18 gauge wire and probably won't anytime soon, but am always interested in learning.
Thanks
Paul
Cargo Master
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,310
Likes: 365
From: Kansas
no danger, as the current would only be flowing down the large cable to the starter...but if the brown wire happened to be connected to the starter (without the large starter cable) the wire would lose it's smoke real fast! :-)
you can test a diode with on ohm meter...continuity one way, open the other...
I would guess higher quality relays would utilize 2 contacts for the starter lug and I terminal...cheaper versions probably save as much copper as they can!
you can test a diode with on ohm meter...continuity one way, open the other...
I would guess higher quality relays would utilize 2 contacts for the starter lug and I terminal...cheaper versions probably save as much copper as they can!
Cargo Master
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,310
Likes: 365
From: Kansas
@1TonBasecamp , I woke up in the middle of the night realizing what you were trying to get through my thick skull...the voltage from the ignition switch through the resistor wire would have an electrical path to the starter via where the I wire splices in to energize the coil during cranking...my memory either sucks, I mis-measured, or had a faulty solenoid...but now I agree, that would be a stupid design if it was as I have thought all these years!
Now that the OP's post has been derailed, maybe he'll come back and we can help him :-)
Now that the OP's post has been derailed, maybe he'll come back and we can help him :-)
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,831
Likes: 121
From: St Albert, Alberta
The mounting should ALWAYS be mounted so the mounting bracket is up and the bat/starter studs are down There are 2 reasons for this.
One the bottom plate is not watertight and can allow for water intrusion (especially if vented).
Second the contact plate has to be oriented so it is on the bottom BELOW the contact studs if the return spring fails (it happens) and the relay is mounted upside down (mounting bracket down, bat/starter studs up ) the contact plate can fall down and make contact with the bat starter studs engaging the starter with no way to shut it off short of removing bat power.
It is orientated the way it was from the factory for a reason and to ensure fail-safe. Just cause a manufacturer decided to put the sticker on upside down does not mean that is how it is mounted... If you come across one that backwards pitch it in the trash, cause that is exactly what it is garbage, and should not be used.
One the bottom plate is not watertight and can allow for water intrusion (especially if vented).
Second the contact plate has to be oriented so it is on the bottom BELOW the contact studs if the return spring fails (it happens) and the relay is mounted upside down (mounting bracket down, bat/starter studs up ) the contact plate can fall down and make contact with the bat starter studs engaging the starter with no way to shut it off short of removing bat power.
It is orientated the way it was from the factory for a reason and to ensure fail-safe. Just cause a manufacturer decided to put the sticker on upside down does not mean that is how it is mounted... If you come across one that backwards pitch it in the trash, cause that is exactly what it is garbage, and should not be used.
Cargo Master
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,172
Likes: 101
From: darlington
FTE Stories
Ford Trucks for Ford Truck Enthusiasts
Top 10 Most Expensive Ford Trucks Ever Sold on Bring a Trailer
Joe Kucinski
2027 Ford Super Duty Buyer's Guide (Every Model, Engine, & Package)
Brett Foote
Top 10 Ford Truck Tragedies
Joe Kucinski
AEV FXL Super Duty - the Super Duty Raptor Ford Doesn't Make
Brett Foote
Lobo Vs Lobo: Proof the F-150 Lobo Should Be Even Lower!
Michael S. Palmer
Ford's 2001 Explorer Sportsman Concept Looks For a New Home
Verdad Gallardo
10 Best Ford Truck Engines We Miss the Most!
Joe Kucinski
2026 Shelby F-150 Off-Road: Better Than a Raptor R?
Brett Foote
2027 Super Duty Carhartt Package First Look: 12 Things You NEED to Know!
Michael S. Palmer
Thread Starter
|
New User
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
addition
Nah, that's how lots of them mount. Ears up, contacts down.
In your case Jacob, are the small terminals noted by molded-in letters anywhere? If so, one should be an "S" and the other an "I" for "switch" and "ignition" respectively.
The thing here is, aftermarket replacement Ford starter relays/solenoids are the single most likely part to be bad right out of the box. There are even discussions (I think in the '80 through '86 forum?) where we are keeping track of brands and failure rates.
The fact that it clicked once when you turn the key means you likely have them correct, but it doesn't hurt to verify.
I can't see colors in your pic, but of the two small wires the one that is Red w/blue is the "S" wire from your ignition switch, and the Brown one is the "I" wire that runs over to the ignition coil connector at the back of the engine.
You can disconnect the Brown wire and everything will still work, but if you disconnect the Red w/blue wire you won't even get a click. And if you put them backwards you will get that click and the engine cranking as soon as you turn the key to ON.
A quick test of the starter relay could work like this:
1. First is to jumper the battery cable to the "S" terminal. If it cranks the starter then your relay is fine. If it does not, then on to #2.
2. With a heavier duty tool or full size jumper cables, jump the one large terminal on the battery side to the other large terminal on the starter side. If it cranks this time, your relay is bad.
3. If it won't crank with either test, then either the battery is dead, the battery or starter cables are bad, or the starter is bad.
Try those tests and we'll see if we can come up with more of them.
Also make sure the battery is fully charged and is in good shape.
But remember that both those new parts could have been bad right out of the box. If none of the above work, you may have to take the starter out and test it on the bench with jumper cables directly.
Paul
In your case Jacob, are the small terminals noted by molded-in letters anywhere? If so, one should be an "S" and the other an "I" for "switch" and "ignition" respectively.
The thing here is, aftermarket replacement Ford starter relays/solenoids are the single most likely part to be bad right out of the box. There are even discussions (I think in the '80 through '86 forum?) where we are keeping track of brands and failure rates.
The fact that it clicked once when you turn the key means you likely have them correct, but it doesn't hurt to verify.
I can't see colors in your pic, but of the two small wires the one that is Red w/blue is the "S" wire from your ignition switch, and the Brown one is the "I" wire that runs over to the ignition coil connector at the back of the engine.
You can disconnect the Brown wire and everything will still work, but if you disconnect the Red w/blue wire you won't even get a click. And if you put them backwards you will get that click and the engine cranking as soon as you turn the key to ON.
A quick test of the starter relay could work like this:
1. First is to jumper the battery cable to the "S" terminal. If it cranks the starter then your relay is fine. If it does not, then on to #2.
2. With a heavier duty tool or full size jumper cables, jump the one large terminal on the battery side to the other large terminal on the starter side. If it cranks this time, your relay is bad.
3. If it won't crank with either test, then either the battery is dead, the battery or starter cables are bad, or the starter is bad.
Try those tests and we'll see if we can come up with more of them.
Also make sure the battery is fully charged and is in good shape.
But remember that both those new parts could have been bad right out of the box. If none of the above work, you may have to take the starter out and test it on the bench with jumper cables directly.
Paul
Lead Driver
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 9,597
Likes: 1,172
From: San Jose, CA
To me, that usually means that the fault is either in the ignition switch, or the wiring and any components in between the switch and "the switch" (I mean relay thingy).
This could be something like a failing wire, or a faulty neutral safety switch if it's an auto transmission. On these year trucks too, those with manual transmissions can have the jumper wire that takes the place of the neutral safety switch fail.
Of course, it could also be a faulty starter relay, so the only way I know of to confirm, is to see if you have power on the Red w/blue wire when it does not click.
It would not hurt to measure voltage on that wire anyway, since I've heard that if the voltage is too low you might get intermittent function. But I've never experienced that, and would have thought that either the voltage was enough to energize the relay, or it wasn't.
Hmm, something I have not seen in a long time, but that used to be a common problem, was the connector getting loose. That's the little 90° push-on connector at the end of the Red w/blue wire on the "S" post. If it's loose it might only give an intermittent signal.
Check that out too. Easy enough to fix by gently squeezing it with a pair of wide-nose pliers. But I mean GENTLY! Or you'll be fixing the opposite problem, when it's smooshed down so small it won't fit over the post!
Good luck.
Paul
This could be something like a failing wire, or a faulty neutral safety switch if it's an auto transmission. On these year trucks too, those with manual transmissions can have the jumper wire that takes the place of the neutral safety switch fail.
Of course, it could also be a faulty starter relay, so the only way I know of to confirm, is to see if you have power on the Red w/blue wire when it does not click.
It would not hurt to measure voltage on that wire anyway, since I've heard that if the voltage is too low you might get intermittent function. But I've never experienced that, and would have thought that either the voltage was enough to energize the relay, or it wasn't.
Hmm, something I have not seen in a long time, but that used to be a common problem, was the connector getting loose. That's the little 90° push-on connector at the end of the Red w/blue wire on the "S" post. If it's loose it might only give an intermittent signal.
Check that out too. Easy enough to fix by gently squeezing it with a pair of wide-nose pliers. But I mean GENTLY! Or you'll be fixing the opposite problem, when it's smooshed down so small it won't fit over the post!
Good luck.
Paul
Lead Driver
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 9,597
Likes: 1,172
From: San Jose, CA
@1TonBasecamp , I woke up in the middle of the night...
I think your other one was faulty. I just checked three of them. Two early style (like we're talking about) and one later model, but with both an S and an I terminal.
One early was a Motorcraft unit made in China, the other a Standard one made in Taiwan, and the late model a Volvo/Penta made in the USA (yay!) model.
Verified with positive and negative test probes both ways to eliminate the possibility of a diode and all three checked out negative for any contact between the starter output stud and the "I" terminal. So that first rough drawing from YouTube is wrong, but the engineering diagram from Wells is correct.
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Paul
.
Junior User
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 66
Likes: 3
I've never heard of a proper orientation for a solenoid. Been working with electrical starters and contactors for many years. I will say that it will work fine in either direction, provided it's wired properly. But as the gentleman stated, if the spring fails, and if it's upside down, then yes you will have a problem. So I would definitely take note and make sure it's oriented in a way to prevent possible failure resulting in a "runaway" starter. If nothing else than to prevent an injury.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Fkoz
1973 - 1979 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks
25
Sep 26, 2017 10:42 PM
PStruwing
1968-Present E-Series Van/Cutaway/Chassis
9
Apr 9, 2012 10:59 AM