What the hell??? What's going on there?

 

As Fixenstuff posted, you don't tear into an engine without doing every thing possible to isolate the problem first. Little embarrassing to tear down an engine blind little by little, get it totally apart, find nothing lunched, then find the knock is a cracked flex plate.

 

Haha! LOL on that video post. I watched it as soon as I got home many hours ago and from that video I got long sidetracked at YouTube (apologies to Leroy for not getting back to him when I said I would.) I hope you realize, lonewolf that you are going to be held liable to eventually offer an explanation of what's going on in that video.
I could only image what might be going on with those lifters but I thought I would cheat and read the comments. Eventually the person who posted the video said that the cam was worn out or shot but at the time I still couldn't quite figure out how a worn cam could cause that specific behavior. I have another theory or two that I just now came up with but I'm not ready to offer a possible answer yet.

Thanks for the tip on the timing light strobe. I'll be 70 next month (hard for me to comprehend that) and I must admit that I have never had a 'modern' timing light with a dial to change the timing degrees of the strobe light. The last timing light that I remember having I found in my shed and I gave it away about 5 years ago. EXCEPT FOR ONE. I have a very old one still in the original package that was given to me by an old timer that looks to be from a parts store from the late 1950s or 60s which is still in my shed AND I THINK I HAVE ONE FROM PROBABLY THE 1930s My huge shed is so full of junk I don't think I want to even try to find it until like next June when the weather will maybe be nice. I used to have a bunch of stuff from old model Ts including the original ford tools but I think I've given all of that away. I don't collect antiques or much of anything so when I meet someone who does collect those things I give it to them.

ANYWAY, I'll have to get back to this topic and Leroy's situation tomorrow. (or I mean later today when I wake up).

 

The purpose for this post is this video which I found last night and I thought it was relevant to Leroy's situation, or anyone with lifter and cam issues.

Top Ten Reasons for Camshaft & Lifter Failure

Now some other junk I already wrote:
At first I thought that DarkOverCast had posted that VM 2.5 diesel video clip so I wrote that HE was liable to provide an explanation but then I realized that it was lonewolf who posted it so I corrected that in an edit.
I had never even heard of the VM diesel made in Italy so I looked up the history on it.
Here in the USA I guess we haven't been allowed to possess any of those many many diesel cars & trucks from Europe, Japan, etc. We are like a poor 3rd world county when it comes to being able to have such wonderful things as those. We are not even supposed to know that they exist, it seems.

I saw an ad from the UK about a month ago for a Honda Civic Diesel with a 6 speed automatic. It was some years old but I could see that it was a very nice car, appeared to be much better built than the 1996 low mileage gas powered Honda Civic DX Coupe that I had recently, which was like a tuna can with a very good engine and a very efficient 4 speed automatic transmission which I really liked. I didn't like the cheap 'tuna can' part of the car. I sold it to a friend last spring for $200.00 because I wanted the extra parking space and didn't want to keep buying tabs for it. I didn't even know that they made Diesel Hondas and surprisingly a Honda Civic. The newer ones have very efficient 9 speed automatic transmissions which is quite an accomplishment for diesel powered vehicles! I suspect that the newer Ford trucks are probably copying Honda automatic transmission technology. (those dir-r-ry rats)

 

Actually I just recently picked up a 90 Jeep that has the 2.5 TDI in it ... I guess they are pretty rare here in the States ... from my understanding the Original owner was Military USAF and brought this one back.... I thought it was a 4 cylinder when I first heard it was a 2.5 TDI.. I was surprised to find different,
I Think the Original engine in it was the 4 Cylinder but was swapped for the 5.. the price was right and I'm the 2nd owner of it Now so I have a fair bit of information on it from the Original Owner's Widow, she told me her son had driven it for a time and this explains why the engine it covered in oil .. leaks everywhere and RTV smeared all over the place... however it runs pretty well all things considered. I think Renault had their Hands in this Pie too along with VM

I came across that old Video while searching for information on it, and since I had Posted about using a Strobe to watch Valves it seemed appropriate in this Thread as we kinda feel the OP probably has valve train issues amongst other things and this is a GOOD example of messed up Valve train.

I think some of the effects that you see in the Video could be from Just making the Video of the issue as you do in fact get a strobing Artifact due to Frame rates, kinda like filming a moving car and it looks like the wheels are turning Backwards

I didn't mean it for Hyjacking .. it was Just for an Example.

Maybe not my Best Decision, But I like it https://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f11/...diesel-810349/

1990 Jeep Cherokee Turbo Diesel (man. 5) detailed performance review, speed vs rpm and accelerations chart

Complete performance review and accelerations chart for Jeep Cherokee Turbo Diesel (man. 5) in 1990, the model with 5-door sport-utility wagon body and Line-4 2068 cm3 / 126.4 cui, 59 kW / 80 PS / 79 hp (DIN) engine for Europe Germany, Italy. According to ProfessCars™ estimation this Jeep is capable of accelerating from 0 to 60 mph in 17.8 sec, from 0 to 100 km/h in 19.6 sec and the quarter mile drag time is 20.8 sec.

 

Thanks guys for all the great comments,
especially the tips on camshaft and lifter problems,
I will do a through inspection, I will be in there
for a closer look tomorrow..Update..



Today I took off the accessories and drained some coolant,
much of the metallic noise abated with these off.
Notably my alternator bearings have been noisy for quite a while,
I have a new set of bearings for the alt, and will replace them while it’s out.



The chuffing is definitely coming from the crankcase, specifically the CDR,
the pulsating pressure is overcoming the spring..



I pulled the cdr, and my basic push blow test shows that it
is operating as it should, and the diaphragm is good.
it must just be the pulsations that are allowing the
bypass of gasses and oil mist, probably fueling
a cycle that has further injured the headgaskets
with oil bubbling up into the intake.


Using my layman power of deduction, and wishful thinking,
I think this is reinforcing a diagnosis of headgasket
failure. When the air filter assy is off blowby is coming
from the filler neck and dipstick tube, when I cover the intake
screen partially with my hand, the vacuum pulls the smoke
down and it stops. The motor never has had much of any
blowby or oil consumption before, so this is associated with the issue.
Further, there is an acculturation of oily muck at the radiator.



So, my thinking's are it could be that headgasket
blown mostly on the crankcase side. A cracked head,
or a cracked piston.



I am leaning, that with little oil consumption, and the the problem
has gotten steadily worse with time, instead of a sudden change,
no obvious stuck open injector, to burn a hole,
alongside the obvious weeping and coolant contamination, that
the headgasket is the most likely culprit.


Still just a guest a guess at this point though,
I won’t know more until tomorrow when
I dig further into the engine. I left the fuel filter bracket on and
will pull the valve covers again and run it, putting a straight edge
to the rockers to look for any lifter not making or exceeding the gap.
All looked normal a few weeks ago, but a problem would
probably be easier to pinpoint now if there is a valvetrain issue.
I will definitely check the lifters before pulling the heads. Though
I’m hoping all that huffing is coming from the case,
and that the valves and lifters are still good.



I’ll pull the the lifters and visually inspect them and
soak them in laquor thinner if they’re looking alright

The fel pro top end kit has been delivered, so I’m ready to do it.



I have decided to go through the top, rather than pull the motor,
mostly because of the weather, forecasts are showing rain
and snow every other day, and I’ll be doing this outside on
the nicer days in fair weather.

Further, my place floods on occasion, not too often or deep,
but a few days of hard rain could hit and be a spoiler, I think
I’ll keep the motor high and dry, and keep myself under the
hood, and out of the mud. In the summer, with long days
and clear weather, I’d pull it and save my back.

I’ll post what I find tomorrow, hopefully the heads and valvetrain
are alright. And the head bolts are serviceable. I have the exposed
bolts soaking overnight in pb blaster, so hopefully the come up
easy. None look much rusted externally, but will have to carefully
check the shafts and threads.

I’ll drain the oil for reuse, and flush out any coolant with
No2 if any gets down into the block.

I’ve been driving it daily since 2011, so it’s about due for
headgaskets I’d say, betwen the previous owner and myself,
If this is the OE gasket, they’ve probably racked up half a million
miles on em’.



This is the likely the first time it’ll be opened
up in 34 years, other than this issue, never a problem
aside from common burned and deleted GP’s,
fuel delivery, IP, injector, fuel pump, maintenance,
and oil changes.

 

IF you Know that you have Leaking head Gaskets then I guess that is a Priority to fix.

a valve job is in order IF you have the heads off.. this can cause oil consumption when you reinstall the heads IF the rings are worn out...

of course @RaymondIVwill argue that this is impossible.

 

It's getting a spit n polish if I don't find anything obvious wrong with the heads, sounds expensive,
hopefully they're alright.

I admitadly work slow , but you know how it is, they didn't do me any favors how they put this motor together. As I'm sure you know, there's always a 'special trick' to damn everything and always only 1/8 of an inch clearance anywhere, but yep been digging deeper.

I have everything but the, manifold, Valley pan and heads left on top, it looks like by trimming an inch or two of the inner wheel wells I can get the exhaust manifolds off in place and leave the y flanges. I would rather like to leave them on if I can get away with it, every, every single time I take on off, even heated by the oxy acct torch one always inevitably breaks, and also have to hunt down a doughnut, also it looks like I can leave the dipstick if I can get the exh manifolds wired up and held in place.. Is this how it's usually done, looks like they left room almost .. Special.. Lol

Well, so at first notice, the rockers are much covered in surface rust, 3 ish weeks ago when I peeked it was a tiny bit, now it's 4x as much rust on the rockers and pushrods.

Also it's chuffing alot of smoke out of the seals, I think it might be smoke corrosion causing the surface rust by the look of how it's blowing, but could also be coolant contamination in the water.

It wasnt chuffing smoke at all past the valve train last time, now it's like a locomotive.. I'll get on youtube and post a video.

I haven't got the Valley pan off yet, but a sharp straight edge is showing all the rockers are coming up to full motion, with the furthest forward intake lifter on the driver side perhaps a little bit higher than the others inline, but not by much maybe 1/8 of an inch more lift, but repeating on slow cranks and sighting down the row it more or less settled with the rest, I will clean and inspect that closely, but it seems like the top end is pretty much doing what it's supposed to. Hopefully the lifters all pass and it looks like I still got a cam.

I will be changing the oil sooner than later it looks like, shame, just put in fresh juice, but will have to clean up this surface rust and give her fresh dino blood when this is all through, head gaskets in this truck sure ain't a weekend job, or I drinkalmost as much I wrench, have to on this one!

 

 

I've pulled heads off both 6.9 and 7.3 with and without the exhaust manifolds attached. using an Impact to remove the manifolds helps to minimize breaking along with WD-40 or your choice of Penetrate.

I like to use a Cherry Picker to get the heads out too... work smart not hard

NOW I have never tried to Re-install the heads with the manifolds attached, but I guess one could do it that way.

Rust on the rockers is a sure sign that water has been in the engine or at least Heavy Condensation.

I don't do things in a Hurry either, I'm a Master of Procrastination

This would be a good time to go thru the Oil Cooler too.

 

The y pipe is ball and cup so no donuts, I've also had no trouble ever getting mine loose so I'd give it a go. 5/8" deep well socket and a wobble makes it real nice.

I had to pull the ac box cover to get the last few head bolts out. I left the manifolds on and used them as a grip as well as my fingers in the intake ports. I pulled them myself but had help putting them back on. They are HEAVY, around 100 pounds heavy.

I would seriously consider studding while you have it apart. 6.9 studs are 250, which isn't bad compared to the 500 price tag of 7.3 studs.

I didn't mess with my heads either. Didn't even change the seals as I needed it asap. Think I had 16 hours total in the job. If you reuse your head bolts international wants them torqued 5ft/lbs over to 80ft/lbs on the final step.

 

Confirmed: broken head gasket .

Okay, so I been digging further. Yesterday I had the Valley pan, rockers, pushrods out, and couldn't identify a clear break in the hg to the crankcase.

All the lifters and cam action look good, and move as they're supposed to. No problems with rockers or pushrods, no clear break in hg to crankcase.

To further pinpoint the offending cylinder, prior to head removal, in the unlikely event that with it off, that I still wouldn't find fault. I put the pushrods and rockers back on with the intake off, reinstalled the IP just hanging out there and cranked.

The chuff was now clear and easy to identify as coming from the second forward most intake runner on the driver side.

Only one of two possibilities at that point, and either would be apparent only with the heads removed. Either damaged intake valve or seat, or broken hg between cylinders.

Upon removal of the head bolts, things began to clarify, as those surrounding that troubled cylinder were lightly coated in exhaust soot and were slightly more difficult to retrieve from their holes.

At this point, I was feeling relieved, as I was more convinced that I would find a broken hg, and not a more serious mechanical failure.

The damaged hg is on the driver side, with no dipstick to concern with, I unbolted the exhaust flange, and pulled the manifold with the head.

The studs and bolts are good quality and didn't give me any problems or break anything, easy to get to as opposed to taking it off separately.

With the head off, the diagnosis was confirmed, there is a break between the forward most two cylinders on the driver's side. It looks likely that it'd been leaking for awhile, and finally blew out an unhealthy chunk.

I don't know how this would have caused the knocking that occurred that one day, I didn't see any valve prints, though it was very unbalanced, and maybe some of the oil that was blowing through the cdr accumulated too much and lightly locked up a cylinder.

I'm not sure, but I'll have that other side off tomorrow and will look for anything out of the ordinary,

Overall, I'm very happy to finally know for sure what the problem is. I have the gasket kit in hand, so it will be put back together and running strong sooner than later.

I'm also pleased that the condition of the engine looks very good. Rockers, pushrods, lifters, valves, pre-cups, piston tops, look good.

Cylinder wear looks good just catches the fingernail. A disturbing amount of grime fell into the cylinders when I pulled the head, I will have to turn the motor by hand back and forth a few times to get all of this debris out of the engine.

I will certainly be changing the oil again at the first opportunity, with as dirty a job digging down into the motor is, completely unavoidable.

No coolant seeped into the case with removing any of the top end, so draining it out is definitely a good idea.

The Valley pan gasket came out beautifully with no bends or breaks in the mating surface, I will certainly reuse it without hesitation and I'm sure it will seal up, with rtv front, back, coolant ports, and form a gasket elsewhere.

The head bolts are in very good condition, and also I will reuse them without hesitation, and I'm sure that they'll be fine.

They were really, really, on there tight, and I broke a serious sweat, backing them out, hoping that none would break, but, they came alright. Will chase the block threads, lube the bolts and washers and torque em down.

One question, specs call for 75 lb. Also I have heard on the forum, 80lb.

What is your recommendation for used good, stock 6.9 / 7/16 head bolt final torque?

Is 75 plenty good enough, is 80 inviting disaster?

I don't push my motor too hard, and it's going to stay non turbo charged, would you stay with 75lb, yes or no and why please.


- -
These bolts are looking pretty good. I don't think I could ever justify spending 250 dollars for fasteners, even if when compared to 500 for half inchers it's a fire sale. I'm sure they're difficult to manufacture and all, but that's just too much cash for a bag of bolts.

One vote of stock bolts by IH to 80lb.

thanks !

 

I wouldn't stress reusing the bolts, mine weren't in the cleanest shape and at the time I couldn't remember if international spec was 5 or 10 pounds over so I did ten and they've been fine for two years and holding so far now that I'm turbo.

I didn't have an end tap either I just blew out the holes but I think it's a great idea to go ahead and do it.

 

Thanks DOC,
fair condition stock IH bolts good to 85lb

I don't have a tap, just gonna grind down fluted groves in a 7/16 x 14 bolt and chase em' out.

good to know they can go for a little rough even at the higher lbs.

 

There's a head bolt and head stud thread here, https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...ch-thread.html

They're good for alot more than the 85ft/lbs but how long they'll last is all up in the air, I plan to over torque mine since im having to let out of it when I hit 15psi, I'd like it to hold 20 or so, we'll see what happens.

On my old engine I had a external oil leak on the passenger head, I simply broke em loose and bumped em up to 105ft/lbs, I didn't break any that time either, I drove it a few months before I swapped it out. Once I got the old engine out I tried to go higher to find the snap point, around 120ft/lbs the 3/8's drive socket broke because I didn't have a 1/2" drive socket in 12 point so I used a smaller one with an adapter.

I'll definitely volunteer to be the guinea pig for over torquing though, my gaskets are two years old so I'd hate to have to stud right now. Rather just do it later and go with oem gaskets this next time. I used felpro because that's what they had on hand on a Saturday morning, it was all back together Sunday evening.

Guess I could always pull the engine and do em one at a time like the cummins guys