Bulletproofing..........help me understand
5th Wheeling
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
From: NC
Absolutely the same mindset.
I grew up with a stack of Hot Rod under my bed from the age of 7, which meant everything initially got modified. The progression went lawn mowers, tractors, farm truck, my car, motorcycles....... then I got into my 20s. A lot of re-fixing the betterment. Once I got to work in the automotive industry I started to see things differently. The progression of betterment slowed as I understood the design and testing that went behind products. Another awakening was from the aspect that my company had half of its sales to OE for assembly line applications and the other half aftermarket. One week I could b sitting in an engineering meeting in Detroit, then next week working with a sales rep in the aftermarket or being in a meeting with the aftermarket program managers. What a friggin dichotomy. Of course, I have a new reawakening of that currently for a non-brake reason.
With the 6.0 Ford pushed the limits, of the motor and of Int/Nav. They were not up to the task, and I don't mean that in a bad way. They were utility engine builders, Ford wanted Shelby Mustang prominence. Nav's "A bridge too far", which culminated into the 6.4L. As I saw on the brake side with the '99-04 Akebono calipers, Ford can push a manufacturer to do things where the supplier knew better, and it's the end customer that is the one hurting when the dust settles. And the manufacturer too since it gets dropped as a supplier because it did what the customer wanted. (Pricing had a LOT to do with that too, TRW came in below cost).
As Shawn very well stated, International chassis did not have the same failure rates for HG or oil coolers that Ford pickups did, and the warranty for the E-vans was lower than the pickups. That data I used to have access to. From what I remember after 6.0L launch, everyone jumped on getting more power. So it was the head bolts fault (probably not), then the gaskets fault (aftermarket heroes, oops, need Motorcraft), and now that studs are not the Holy Grail, it's o-rings. Ask yourself, why are there 5 different casting numbers of 6.0L heads.
This is a motor that needs an owner who has tolerance and great mechanical abilities, along with a good wallet. Not a dig at Smack Daddy at all, but "I have dropped about $15k in preventative repairs and upgrades to make it run the way I want it to..." after paying $15k for it, could get my first wife, a psychologist, to say you need to lay on the couch. What it's "worth to me" sometimes is self-justification when you can't sell it for that or any reimbursement from an insurance situation.
Whenever someone comes here asking about buying a new truck, Mark usually starts his list of things to learn and test before you buy. It's a good list. New, with a responsible owner (I wasn't one) they can have a good life. Used, the quality of repairs should require a sign installed on the window, quicksand ahead.
I grew up with a stack of Hot Rod under my bed from the age of 7, which meant everything initially got modified. The progression went lawn mowers, tractors, farm truck, my car, motorcycles....... then I got into my 20s. A lot of re-fixing the betterment. Once I got to work in the automotive industry I started to see things differently. The progression of betterment slowed as I understood the design and testing that went behind products. Another awakening was from the aspect that my company had half of its sales to OE for assembly line applications and the other half aftermarket. One week I could b sitting in an engineering meeting in Detroit, then next week working with a sales rep in the aftermarket or being in a meeting with the aftermarket program managers. What a friggin dichotomy. Of course, I have a new reawakening of that currently for a non-brake reason.
With the 6.0 Ford pushed the limits, of the motor and of Int/Nav. They were not up to the task, and I don't mean that in a bad way. They were utility engine builders, Ford wanted Shelby Mustang prominence. Nav's "A bridge too far", which culminated into the 6.4L. As I saw on the brake side with the '99-04 Akebono calipers, Ford can push a manufacturer to do things where the supplier knew better, and it's the end customer that is the one hurting when the dust settles. And the manufacturer too since it gets dropped as a supplier because it did what the customer wanted. (Pricing had a LOT to do with that too, TRW came in below cost).
As Shawn very well stated, International chassis did not have the same failure rates for HG or oil coolers that Ford pickups did, and the warranty for the E-vans was lower than the pickups. That data I used to have access to. From what I remember after 6.0L launch, everyone jumped on getting more power. So it was the head bolts fault (probably not), then the gaskets fault (aftermarket heroes, oops, need Motorcraft), and now that studs are not the Holy Grail, it's o-rings. Ask yourself, why are there 5 different casting numbers of 6.0L heads.
This is a motor that needs an owner who has tolerance and great mechanical abilities, along with a good wallet. Not a dig at Smack Daddy at all, but "I have dropped about $15k in preventative repairs and upgrades to make it run the way I want it to..." after paying $15k for it, could get my first wife, a psychologist, to say you need to lay on the couch. What it's "worth to me" sometimes is self-justification when you can't sell it for that or any reimbursement from an insurance situation.
Whenever someone comes here asking about buying a new truck, Mark usually starts his list of things to learn and test before you buy. It's a good list. New, with a responsible owner (I wasn't one) they can have a good life. Used, the quality of repairs should require a sign installed on the window, quicksand ahead.
Returned to a one owner none pimped 2005 Ford Excursion, built April 2005. The previous owner installed International harness, injectors, control, High pressure pump.
Bought it at 96k now 130k. All kind of forum members and local 6.0 mechnics beat the head bolt failure drum before 150k. Fear mongering?
As a Diesel driver I drive calm like a mule train driver. Mercedes 240D vehicles are known for over 700k mile engine life.
So Jack what advice can you give a retiree 7k GVWR puller with now hurry guy? Shall I lower the 330 stock 6.0 Excursion HP to prolong engine life?
You well know the cap has to be lifted to change head bolts. So $12k are fast spend.
Thank you for your wisdom
Hans Heckhausen Asheville NC
Cargo Master
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 2,808
Likes: 1,895
From: unfortunately Germany
Of course, the 240D (vehicle type W123) were generally very good engines. Mine was flat as a postage stamp with 100k, he was driven exclusively short distances.
My 2006 F350 6.0 got with 30K new head gaskets at the previous owner. I EGR-deleted it 2016 (bought it 2015), original head bolts are still installed. The HG job was done 2012 cab on by a US Ford workshop here in Germany. In my opinion you can't do a clean enough job cab on. I have small problems with coolant pressure . At some point I will install o-ringed heads (whether aluminum or steel I am still undecided) with felpros (whether with bolts or studs I am undecided too). In my experience, problems occur more on engines due to be driven too hot, I keep EOT always below 212⁰F, I keep my cooling system clean of course and filtering coolant with an IPR full flow filter.
My 2006 F350 6.0 got with 30K new head gaskets at the previous owner. I EGR-deleted it 2016 (bought it 2015), original head bolts are still installed. The HG job was done 2012 cab on by a US Ford workshop here in Germany. In my opinion you can't do a clean enough job cab on. I have small problems with coolant pressure . At some point I will install o-ringed heads (whether aluminum or steel I am still undecided) with felpros (whether with bolts or studs I am undecided too). In my experience, problems occur more on engines due to be driven too hot, I keep EOT always below 212⁰F, I keep my cooling system clean of course and filtering coolant with an IPR full flow filter.
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 17,827
Likes: 3,110
From: Jersey Shore
I don't think the 6.0 has a head bolt problem; the head bolts are spaced too far apart (captain obvious), and the heads were not designed for the deflection that occurs across the width. You can be wide, but it takes a lot of enhancement to prevent the deflection. It's why the Ford application, with its higher horsepower (combustion pressure), faults when extra power with tuning is provided. Stock, there still is deflection, limiting the head gasket life, but pushed farther when the engine sees higher temperatures, as Hartwig noted. Other things that can increase combustion pressure, such as the EGR cooler leaking allowing coolant into the combustion chambers, will do it too.
I'm speculating with all the different casting numbers with the heads changes made during the engine production. There indeed were with the 20mm dowel application, both heads, and block, but not for the reasons of "commonization." That I believe made the engine more reliable, but not perfect; you still can get into a head gasket failure with the 20mm heads. The next generation for this basic design, the 6.4L, shows the reinforcements in the heads that should have been incorporated, IMO. But unfortunately, everything and everyone has a learning curve. Unfortunately, the aftermarket castings of iron heads did not design those aspects into the available iron heads. KDD seems to be doing that now with their aluminum heads, which I would think tells a story of the aluminum heads they sold prior, but I have no knowledge of that. Aluminum has a higher thermal expansion rate and deflects more as its strength is lower. So I am wary of aluminum heads on a diesel unless they have been designed at the OE level, and even that is not a certainty based on the 6.0L history.
I could be wrong in my viewpoint, and spending my career in R&D tells the story; there is always more to the story. So I'd be the first to question myself.
Having a 2005 means you have 18mm heads unless, like me, the 20mm heads were installed at some point. I prefer keeping the programming stock not to push the envelope; I don't need the extra power excitement. And as Hartwig noted above, address any maintenance where the coolant and oil temps are excessive to a normal situation. Higher temps not only stress the heads more but also stress the head bolts/studs from expansion. TTY will reduce the clamping load with every new first higher temp, pushing the yield to a higher level, but it's only the first excursion to that temp. You run out of coolant, the bolts over the exhaust ports are gone. Studs may also be failed at that point too. I believe the excessive temps also reduce the oil's lubrication and can accelerate issues with lifter and cam lobes.
There have been a fair amount of stock trucks that run through 300k, 400k, and higher. Some up through 800k. They are almost always non-tuned trucks with good maintenance, especially coolant. If the gaskets do go, the bandaid is o-ringed heads for the most reliability. I think seasoned heads that are flattened without too much material milled off probably are just as good; they have been work hardened, so the yield strength is higher before the distortion is permanent. There is one 6.0 specialist who never installed o-ringed heads, who says he never has comebacks. Heads always distort under load; you can't avoid that. How much they yield to a tented state is the issue.
I would not install E-Van programming to reduce the power.
I'm speculating with all the different casting numbers with the heads changes made during the engine production. There indeed were with the 20mm dowel application, both heads, and block, but not for the reasons of "commonization." That I believe made the engine more reliable, but not perfect; you still can get into a head gasket failure with the 20mm heads. The next generation for this basic design, the 6.4L, shows the reinforcements in the heads that should have been incorporated, IMO. But unfortunately, everything and everyone has a learning curve. Unfortunately, the aftermarket castings of iron heads did not design those aspects into the available iron heads. KDD seems to be doing that now with their aluminum heads, which I would think tells a story of the aluminum heads they sold prior, but I have no knowledge of that. Aluminum has a higher thermal expansion rate and deflects more as its strength is lower. So I am wary of aluminum heads on a diesel unless they have been designed at the OE level, and even that is not a certainty based on the 6.0L history.
I could be wrong in my viewpoint, and spending my career in R&D tells the story; there is always more to the story. So I'd be the first to question myself.
Having a 2005 means you have 18mm heads unless, like me, the 20mm heads were installed at some point. I prefer keeping the programming stock not to push the envelope; I don't need the extra power excitement. And as Hartwig noted above, address any maintenance where the coolant and oil temps are excessive to a normal situation. Higher temps not only stress the heads more but also stress the head bolts/studs from expansion. TTY will reduce the clamping load with every new first higher temp, pushing the yield to a higher level, but it's only the first excursion to that temp. You run out of coolant, the bolts over the exhaust ports are gone. Studs may also be failed at that point too. I believe the excessive temps also reduce the oil's lubrication and can accelerate issues with lifter and cam lobes.
There have been a fair amount of stock trucks that run through 300k, 400k, and higher. Some up through 800k. They are almost always non-tuned trucks with good maintenance, especially coolant. If the gaskets do go, the bandaid is o-ringed heads for the most reliability. I think seasoned heads that are flattened without too much material milled off probably are just as good; they have been work hardened, so the yield strength is higher before the distortion is permanent. There is one 6.0 specialist who never installed o-ringed heads, who says he never has comebacks. Heads always distort under load; you can't avoid that. How much they yield to a tented state is the issue.
I would not install E-Van programming to reduce the power.
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KC DaveP
6.0L Power Stroke Diesel
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Jul 28, 2013 06:23 AM
