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Ignition timing

  #1  
Old 12-24-2018, 03:56 PM
Shawn_Laughlin
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Ignition timing

Iíve been having a problem with my whipped 5.4 3v since I built about 4-5 yrs ago and I think Iíve ran into a weird problem.

Okay when the vet solenoids are unplugged I thought that the the degrees in timing would stay at one position but mine are jumping all around. Are they suppose to move like that?

the timing reading go from 4 to about 42 but when I unplug my maf and start it up it will go from -6 and stay rock solid steady at 16.5 - 17. Something is going on and I can find it.

when the motor was brand new it didnít ping but would bog if giving it full throttle but started to ping about 1-1/2 yrs into it and now pings even easier.

I pulled into into credit union and sitting idling in gear and it stared loping like I had jump timing and misfired by like crazy barely running and not one single code was set. While it was doing this I was watching the timing pid and it was jumping up and down like if I was looking at an o2 sensor. What the heck could cause this crap?

anything should be much appreciated ?
 
  #2  
Old 12-24-2018, 03:58 PM
alloro
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I had that issue once and it turned out to be the crank sensor was on it's way out.
 
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Old 12-25-2018, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by alloro View Post
I had that issue once and it turned out to be the crank sensor was on it's way out.
Would that condition bring on a DTC?
 
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Old 12-25-2018, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JWA View Post
Would that condition bring on a DTC?
Maybe under certain conditions, but for me it did not trigger a DTC.
 
  #5  
Old 12-25-2018, 01:42 PM
Shawn_Laughlin
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Whatís funny is I unplugged the maf and forgot to plug it back in when I was disconnecting the solenoid on drivers side and I cranked it up and the idle was smoother than itís ever been and the timing was not jumping around. so I went to take a ride and went into failsafe mode. Thatís when I seen the maf was unplugged so I plugged back in and it ran great for a little bit but started pinging gain and went back to crap.

The only thing I can think of is a chafed or broke wire but why would that cause it to ping?

And from everything Iíve read is that when the solenoids are disconnected the timing should be at one position and shouldnít vary but thatís far from the case and varies greatly,like 6-20. Also I think it should stock making the phaser knock noise but doesnít so I wonder if Iíve got a bad phaser , and the pinging Iím hearing isnít pinging, but the roll pin came out or broke?
 
  #6  
Old 12-28-2018, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Shawn_Laughlin View Post
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And from everything I’ve read is that when the solenoids are disconnected the timing should be at one position and shouldn’t vary but that’s far from the case and varies greatly,like 6-20. Also I think it should stock making the phaser knock noise but doesn’t so I wonder if I’ve got a bad phaser , and the pinging I’m hearing isn’t pinging, but the roll pin came out or broke?
Couple of thoughts / comments:

Ignition timing is recalculated by the PCM very dynamically (just about for every PIP [profile ignition pickup] signal. There are other factors involved in the calculation - besides just VCT timing and/or Mass air flow. To name a few, RPM, Throttle position, load, retard{requested} (and possibly cam error), and knock sensor signal. The latter might be suspect since you report 'pinging'. The timing strategy is basically to run ignition timing as far advanced as possible - without detection of any pre-ignition (knock). If knock sensors aren't working right - all bets are off.

Sounds ike you're using a scanner - depending on its capability you can see Knock Sensor output voltage at PID #16E6 (bank1) and PID #16E7 (bank2). Both PIDs are two bytes binary representation of 5 volts Max. So formula is (A*256+B)/13107.

Also, you seem suspicious of Phasers. Perhaps rightly so depending on mileage. They will also cause erratic ignition timing at low RPM if oil pressure is insufficient to hold Phasers firmly at base (zero retard) - resulting in rough idle - and 'Phaser Knock' - which you didn't seem to be reporting. If your scanner is FAST enough - you might be able to see CAMERROR jumping around instead of setting quietly at ZERO while idling. Again, depending on your scanner capability you can monitor CAMERROR at PID #16CE (bank1), and PID #091D (bank2). Both PIDs are two bytes (signed) binary representation {camshaft degrees} -35ļ to +35ļ. Formula to interpret the data is INT((Signed(A)*256+B)/12.8). If one of these PIDs is jumping around at idle - it will cause irratic ignition timing and rough idle - without setting a DTC. Over-retard or advance DTC require the existence of a 5 camshaft degree error for 5 seconds - and the signal jumping around defeats this logical test in the PCM, so no DTC is set.
 
  #7  
Old 12-28-2018, 01:57 PM
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That is a helpful bit F150Torqued and I will definitely look into all of it so thanks and Iíll report what I find. Yes the phasers are knocking and when I bring the rpm up to 1200 like ford says to do they still knock and donít stop no matter how high the rpm. The phasers I got from ford the first time the old motor jumped timing and I shouldíve got new ones when I built new motor but thatís my mistake. They were beat up pretty bad and I just straightened the arms that were bent. Honestly the arms on the front of the phasers might have been loose but I took a chance.Iím thinking about yanking the chain covers off and replacing everything and buying the aluminum guide arms from mmr. They are expensive but will give me a piece of mind. Another thing that I wish I wouldíve changed out was the valve body that bolt to the front of the head for the victory solenoid so thatís another thing Iím going to replace. I just hate to do all this and it be something else then ima be kicking myself in the *** thinking I shouldíve bought a new truck. Decisions decisions
 
  #8  
Old 12-28-2018, 10:32 PM
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Phaser knock above 1200 RPM? As far as I know or can envision, that would be weird / unlikely. At that RPM you should have 70 or 80 lbs of oil pressure at that point. Plenty enough to hold the phasers at whatever position commanded unless they are horribly F#%3ed Up. If they're that bad, definitely should have DTC.

Replace VCT Valve body? I am a firm believer in removing and cleaning all the passageways and removing the fine filter screen inside VCT valve bodies and cleaning it. But I don't think I would necessarily replace the whole valve body unless the engine was horribly gunked up or I felt I couldn't reasonably get all passageways clear.

I used the billet aluminum Tensioner arms from MMR, but as far as I know there is NO such equivalent metal guides. Seems strange, since THEY are always the ones that break.


 
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Old 12-31-2018, 11:23 PM
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Every time my timing jumped I always had a a broke stationers guide on the driver side and only 1 out of 4 times both driver and pass side were broke. I was just looking and mmr started making the stationary guides. They actually started making for the 3v after I called them when I found that they made them for the 2v 4v and they said they hadnít ever heard there was a problem and said they would look into it. Well fast forward a year and a half and they had just started final design. Iím not saying it was me but I know I was the first to bring it to there attention the way it sounded when i talked to them bc like I said the guy said they hadnít heard anything about the 3v having problems,which was odd. I couldnít believe it when the guy said that knowing that it was a common problem. And every thing I say above I swear too.

Anyways itís something to do with the vet bc Iíve been having a surge for before I built new motor thinking it was the torque converter but continued after I rebuilt my trans.

i did exactly what you said and looked at vct error and it seems that bank 1 is varying more than the other. And I pulled in my driveway and while the truck was still in gear I applied the brake and gave it a slight bit of gas and it surging up and down, as if I was pressing and depressing the acc pedal over and over. As itís surging Iím looking at the wave form on both blanks vct and with every rpm surge up the wave goes up and with every drop in rpm the wave goes down and Iíve got a screen below that shows it all. But Iím still lost as whatís causing it u less maybe Iíve got bad phasers or bad wiring but donít I donít know.
 
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Old 12-31-2018, 11:26 PM
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For some reason I canít post the picture it wonít upload after it loads
 
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Old 12-31-2018, 11:27 PM
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Or a bad oil pump which is probably most likely the case
 
  #12  
Old 01-01-2019, 02:31 AM
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I'm glad to know MMR has started making metal 'guides' in addition to their tensioner arms. I will immediately begin recommending them because they make perfect sense. Chains are long (lots of links) and a very little wear in each adds up to loose chains in 125,000 to 150-175k. Misfires are going to whip chains around - but if the guides would not break up and clog oil pickup screen, I can't imagine how long a 5.4 would go before you had serious timing issues.

The rough idle and erratic idle rpm are hard to 'diagnose' to an absolute source. I believe the software in the PCM has some programmatic adjustment routines that start oscillating and can't settle down. For sure, when the locking pin in 'phasers' do not capture them at base (zero retard) and oil pressure is insufficient to hold phasers steady - the irregular valve train / valve spring resistance causing valve timing to jump all around. I believe this causes the PCM to make adjustments (ignition timing in particular - because ignition timing HAS to be adjusted if valves are opening/closing 'later' occassionally

In your case - when you pulled in the driveway and idled down - the phasers should be at zero retard and the locking pin should HOLD them there. Sounds like you have dealt with this stuff before and got a good handle on it. I assume you used good/OEM parts (especially phasers), and changed oil pump - or for sure cleaned pan and pickup screen.

Also, another OBDII parameter that I believe is 'instructive' is the VCT Solenoid duty cycle for both Banks. If it takes greater %duty cycle on one bank over the other to keep cams at the PCM's desired retard position - seem to suggest to me blockage / or pressure lower on one side / or cam rotational drag greater on one side -- etc. I watch mine often on Torque Pro and am pleased to see both banks run within one or two tenths (1/10 to 2/10) of a percentage point of each other. You might look at that for another piece of the puzzle.

Can't help on the photo upload. Seems like when you browse and find/upload the file - pressing the UPLOAD button at top-right should do the trick. You using an acceptable file type/format? Is resolution or size to large? Could it be a security privage setting on your end?
 
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Old 01-08-2019, 05:15 PM
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Torqued you seem to have intimate knowledge of these 3ví so anything I can learn on top of what Iíve learned is very welcomed . I never looked at pids or even had a scan tool when the old motor was running so I really have nothing to compare the new motor too as Iím a ford guy in Chevy circle mostly. lol. What I donít get when I look at vct duty cycle is what Iíve read says the phasers start off at the most advanced position which should be 0 percent duty cycle right? If thatís the case something is very wrong. My duty cycle is at 0 when idling and the highest Iíve seen it is 42 percent. It will 0 then press pedal and it goes up to 48-42 and the give it a little more pedal and it drops to 0. That would have me believe the springs are weak,the roll pin came out or very low oil pressure.

Im forgetting a lot that I want to say but canít for the kill few of me remember. Oh I looked at cam error and bank 1 seems to deviate more than bank 2 and there are times when accelerating it will quickly jump up from 0 to 9 or more.

one more thing I just remember is vct advance and spark advance should they be the same or should vct be twice the value of spark advance? Like is spark advance is 17 should vct advance be 34?

The m starting to remember now. If the phasers start out in the most extreme advanced position than that would mean that in the resting or when engine is not running the tining adjacent would show like 30 something btdc right? Mine is 10
 
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Old 01-10-2019, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Shawn_Laughlin View Post
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what I’ve read says the phasers start off at the most advanced position which should be 0 percent duty cycle right?
Correct. In relaxed position (no 12v duty cycle pulses being applied to them) the vct solenoid's internal spring should push the 'spool' valve to the position where 100% of oil flow (and pressure available) is routed into passageways going into Phasers to push them to 'base' position. Which I believe to be Zero degrees advance, ie: NO retard.

I use that lengthy description to avoid making any assumptions about other things (like vct spring - vct screens - oil passageways - phasers, etc.) are acctually working correctly. If they aren't - all bets are off anyway.

Originally Posted by Shawn_Laughlin View Post
If that’s the case something is very wrong. My duty cycle is at 0 when idling and the highest I’ve seen it is 42 percent. It will 0 then press pedal and it goes up to 48-42 and the give it a little more pedal and it drops to 0. That would have me believe the springs are weak,the roll pin came out or very low oil pressure.
Your discription does not sound wrong. Variable valve timing should not come 'into effect' UNDER 800 RPM, and LESS THAN about 25-30% engine load. You can brake torque up in 2nd gear and very effectively exercise variable valve timing. Above 800 r's and about 30% engine load you will see vct request (RCAM) come up and vct duty cycle increase to route oil -porportionately- into phaser retard chambers to 'satisfy' PCM's request for cam retard. CAMERROR is the 'closed loop' signal derived from cps sensors to tell the PCM if it needs to issue more or less vct duty cycle to equalize camerror at zero - thus it knows cams are at desired position.

I am including a Real Time Chart graph of mine driving out of my neighborhood. Study the graph lines and you can 'SEE' all this happening. Even Cam ERROR 'bounce' positive and negative initially on each change then settle down to zero.


Originally Posted by Shawn_Laughlin View Post
... ... Oh I looked at cam error and bank 1 seems to deviate more than bank 2 and there are times when accelerating it will quickly jump up from 0 to 9 or more.
These signals are subjective, though very pertenant. Unbalanced VCTDC indicates the 'system' is having more / or less / trouble getting the cam on one bank to adjust to desired retard. (Higher VCTDC = spool valve opening more flow into phaser advance chambers). A bounce in cam error is not terrible - IF IT SETTLES DOWN. (> 5% OR > 5 seconds = over retard or over advanced DTC).


Originally Posted by Shawn_Laughlin View Post
one more thing I just remember is vct advance and spark advance should they be the same or should vct be twice the value of spark advance? Like is spark advance is 17 should vct advance be 34?

The m starting to remember now. If the phasers start out in the most extreme advanced position than that would mean that in the resting or when engine is not running the tining adjacent would show like 30 something btdc right? Mine is 10
There is NO 'direct' relationship between vct/retard and advance ---- other than what one has on the other based on engine demand and performance. They are completely separate in PCM logic. They are only linked in the sense that when additional torque is needed at low rpm - cams will retard some then decline if MORE power is demanded. Spark advance will react also - but same as it would if it were not a variable valve timing system.

There is lots of moving parts going on - and it is hard to thingk of all the various different things that can be going wrong that can keep it from working right.

Hope this helps.

 
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Old 01-10-2019, 12:29 PM
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I worded that above way wrong. What I meant ,yes the vct starts off at 0 duty cycle but my timing is not maxed out and will hover around,or should I say move around, 6-8 to 18 degrees of advance. I get max advance when the duty goes up. Sorry I was typing and erasing over and over jumbled two separate explanations. I was a tualu confused when I re read what I posted lol thatís bad. And I have actually never seen 0 degrees timing on this truck. The closest it will get to top dead center is 4 btdc and at that point ever single time it starts pinging and clickin loudly
 


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