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DEF forever?

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Old 12-09-2018, 11:37 AM
yukondiesel
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DEF forever?

Is there any tech on the horizon to eliminate the DEF requirement? I have a 2008 F-350 and I am (for the most part) happy with the truck. One MAJOR issue that prevents me from a new truck is the DEF requirement. Too many complications with newer diesels...starting with the REGEN fiasco
 
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Old 12-09-2018, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by yukondiesel View Post
Is there any tech on the horizon to eliminate the DEF requirement? I have a 2008 F-350 and I am (for the most part) happy with the truck. One MAJOR issue that prevents me from a new truck is the DEF requirement. Too many complications with newer diesels...starting with the REGEN fiasco
Sorry but DEF is never going away. It keeps the air cleaner and it has far too much money invested into it now. If anything, the emissions requirements are going to keep getting even more strict than they are now. All the way to the conclusion to this process: hybrid and then all electric. Despite what you read online from the very vocal minority, if you take care of the truck and do the service that is recommended, they are extremely reliable trucks.
 
  #3  
Old 12-09-2018, 12:28 PM
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If DEF is all that is stopping you, then you're in pretty good shape. DEF is, IMO, about the best emissions reduction system ever devised. It doesn't take anything from the engine at all, it doesn't require extremely higher operating temperatures to do its job, and it does a very good job of eliminating toxic emissions for a relatively low cost. The only problem I see with it is the low power condition that is imposed when the DEF reaches a certain level. If there is a sensor failure, reducing the truck's power and speed will make getting to a dealer for repair much more difficult.
 
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Old 12-09-2018, 12:41 PM
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I thought I read somewhere that there was some technology going into electric catalysts that use electric current to burn off the soot and this would eliminate the need for an injector and the use of DEF
 
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Old 12-09-2018, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by 6.7Scorpion View Post
I thought I read somewhere that there was some technology going into electric catalysts that use electric current to burn off the soot and this would eliminate the need for an injector and the use of DEF
Sounds like something that might eliminate active regens, but I donít see it eliminating DEF. Why is DEF such a big deal? All that is required is a refill of the tank roughly every oil change. Costs about $20 and takes about 5 min if youíre using boxes. If you have a pump, itís even faster. Of all the things to dislike about modern trucks, DEF is way down the list for me.
 
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Old 12-09-2018, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by yukondiesel View Post
Is there any tech on the horizon to eliminate the DEF requirement? I have a 2008 F-350 and I am (for the most part) happy with the truck. One MAJOR issue that prevents me from a new truck is the DEF requirement. Too many complications with newer diesels...starting with the REGEN fiasco
I don't know of any new tech but it's clear that Navistar's approach to add more EGR volume rather than use DEF to reduce Nox was a complete failure. The benefits of DEF simply out weigh the cons. As far a "REGEN" fiasco I would say that applies more to the non DEF trucks (like your 08 truck) more than the DEF equipped trucks.

Bottom line is diesels have become more complicated including your 08 that you claim to be happy with for the most part.

 
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Old 12-09-2018, 02:59 PM
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Yeah...This is my 2nd DEF required vehicle. I had a Grand Cherokee Eco-Diesel and the DEF refill on it and on this truck is just simply a non issue.
 
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Old 12-09-2018, 03:03 PM
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The only instance I have heard rumors of for No DEF...is there maybe an emergency vehicle exemption...as limp modes are not a good thing for ambulances...and not good for firetruck to want to Regen, when in pump gear and guys inside trying to put out fires...
 
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Old 12-09-2018, 04:11 PM
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I think he's confusing DEF with DPF. It makes no sense whatsoever for someone to be concerned about DEF...well, Volkswagon, maybe. DPF is pretty much universally hated.
 
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Old 12-09-2018, 04:12 PM
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You can always do a delete. BUT, that ends your warranty, is a pain to get it installed, have to be careful of what tunes you run, the exhaust fumes stink (pun intended), and you now have to take an active role of keeping the engine happy with monitoring fual rail pressure, exhaust gas Temps, coolant Temps, etc. So run the truck stock and put fuel in it when it's low and def in it when it's low... Regens, def and such are what old diesel owners say to justify not upgrading. These new trucks start in the cold faster, run quieter and have more power stock then tuned older trucks. I have always tuned and deleted my old trucks but I love how quiet this one is, how smooth and powerful it is, and how mindless you can be with it. Get in and drive it. That's all. Once you tow with the new one you won't care about adding def every 7-9k miles. These psd are awesome!
 
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Old 12-09-2018, 07:03 PM
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DEF and maybe many diesel engines might fall victim to DICi gasoline. Direct injection, compression ignition, gasoline fuel. 13 and 14:1 compression and combustion chamber wizardry. Mazda has these on the market now, time will tell if this works and can be adapted to larger engines.

EcoBoost with the super high combustion pressures is close, but is still spark ignition. I would bet it's a kiss away from compression ignition if the development goes in that direction. Time will tell.

As for the limp modes etc, IMO that is almost always driver error and laziness. There are plenty of lights, bells and whistles on these vehicles to warn the driver to refill DEF.
 
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Old 12-09-2018, 08:23 PM
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I think you are confused between DEF and DPF (and perhaps EGR).

The things we wish we could get rid of: DPF & EGR.
The thing that really is trivial and not worth much worrying about: DEF.

I read an article maybe a year to 18 months back that .. man the name escapes me, big diesel company (not Cummins) had a "EGR-less" design that was looking really promising. Of course that's not shown up in trucks, I think it was maybe being targeted for industrial application first. So I think it is likely we'll see a significant advancement that results in no EGR and that's really the big one that we'd all like to see gone.
 
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Old 12-09-2018, 08:30 PM
yukondiesel
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Question DEF Forever?

Originally Posted by C12H24 View Post
I think he's confusing DEF with DPF. It makes no sense whatsoever for someone to be concerned about DEF...well, Volkswagon, maybe. DPF is pretty much universally hated.
Nope...no confusion. I do know the difference since my 2008 has the DPF and no need for DEF. It just seems that the more complex these systems become,, the MORE intervention is necessary, plus the cost, although minimal is still and annoyance to me...sorry it just is. Just add the cost of the DEF to the cost of fuel and the cost of fuel conditioner and the cost of anti-gel and the cost of 15 quarts of oil every 5k miles instead of 5 quarts every 10,000 to 20,000 miles and the cost of $80 for fuel filters every 5,000 miles and the cost of $11,000 for the engine/trans. I love my diesels and I've owned a few, but this just starts to get annoying (there's that word again!). Will I buy another diesel...Yup, but I'm not the smartest guy on my block. I guess I like diesels enough to get aggravated every now and then.

Oh and then there's the DEF freezing and the problems reporting DEF levels and the action they apparently have to take when the DEF runs down or out....and so on...and so on.... and so on...

Oh yeah...don't forget the DPF replacement cost. Is this REALLY the best technology available?
 

Last edited by yukondiesel; 12-09-2018 at 08:33 PM. Reason: added thought
  #14  
Old 12-09-2018, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by yukondiesel View Post
Just add the cost of the DEF to the cost of fuel and the cost of fuel conditioner and the cost of anti-gel and the cost of 15 quarts of oil every 5k miles instead of 5 quarts every 10,000 to 20,000 miles and the cost of $80 for fuel filters every 5,000 miles
Your living in the past mate. the 6.7L is 10k oil changes, and 20k filter changes - and that's the severe schedule (I qualify for "Severe). We get about 250mpg on DEF while towing heavy, so nearly 2k miles per fillup, and you just go to the truck stop and its another nozzle at the pump. Its really not a big deal. If you don't tow heavy regularily, you just get it filled with your oil change.

Trust me, the 6.7L is MILES ahead of anything Navistar/International put out. Now if this is a just a general "emissions systems bitch session" which its beginning to sound like it is - delete it, if its legal in your county. If not - deal with it, just like the rest of us. You've spent more energy on this thread worrying about DEF then I have in the 16k miles I've put on my truck LOL.
 
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Old 12-09-2018, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by wrvond View Post
If DEF is all that is stopping you, then you're in pretty good shape. DEF is, IMO, about the best emissions reduction system ever devised. It doesn't take anything from the engine at all, it doesn't require extremely higher operating temperatures to do its job, and it does a very good job of eliminating toxic emissions for a relatively low cost. The only problem I see with it is the low power condition that is imposed when the DEF reaches a certain level. If there is a sensor failure, reducing the truck's power and speed will make getting to a dealer for repair much more difficult.
This is spot on.
OP, research your emissions equipment, which is 100% cooled EGR. You’ll understand why DEF is saving your engine and almost doubling your fuel mileage.
 

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