DEF forever?
Elder User
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 685
Likes: 4
Interesting take on downstream emission controls!!
Logistics Pro
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,529
Likes: 390
From: SEVA
My DEF gauge seems to have stopped dropping and has been at the 9/16-full mark for the last couple thousand miles. I do not tow, and we've had little cold weather here in SEVA ... maybe 4 or 5 nights got below 32°F so far this season. I don't know if I have a problem or not. I did buy a 2.5-gallon jug of DEF on my home today, and will pour it in tomorrow to see if the gauge moves back up.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,512
Likes: 340
From: Wildwood Pa
It would be interesting to compare how much pollution and waste is generated producing, packaging, shipping, & storing DEF to the amount of pollution reduced in engines that use it.
I work for an equipment company that sells & uses DEF in off road equipment. We buy, sell, & use many, many pallets of DEF in 2.5 gallon boxes yearly. It comes to us in a diesel burning 18 wheeler, we have to fire up a gas or diesel powered fork lift to unload it, spewing pollutants. The DEF is on a wooden pallet (trees chopped down), wrapped in plastic (made from oil or natural gas). Each box is made of cardboard, inside is more plastic, a jug. When the jug is empty it and the box goes right to the landfill. The plastic that wrapped the pallet goes to the landfill too, I take the pallets home & burn them for heat. When a customer buys a couple of pallets of DEF, we load it on our diesel powered rollback & burn fuel & spew pollutants to deliver it. Think of all the pollution generated to do all that, & that does not even take in to account all the pollution generated to produce the stuff, or the precious water used.
I have to wonder if there is really any clean air gain at all. Your truck might pollute less, but there is a ton of pollution generated to produce & handle the DEF.
I work for an equipment company that sells & uses DEF in off road equipment. We buy, sell, & use many, many pallets of DEF in 2.5 gallon boxes yearly. It comes to us in a diesel burning 18 wheeler, we have to fire up a gas or diesel powered fork lift to unload it, spewing pollutants. The DEF is on a wooden pallet (trees chopped down), wrapped in plastic (made from oil or natural gas). Each box is made of cardboard, inside is more plastic, a jug. When the jug is empty it and the box goes right to the landfill. The plastic that wrapped the pallet goes to the landfill too, I take the pallets home & burn them for heat. When a customer buys a couple of pallets of DEF, we load it on our diesel powered rollback & burn fuel & spew pollutants to deliver it. Think of all the pollution generated to do all that, & that does not even take in to account all the pollution generated to produce the stuff, or the precious water used.
I have to wonder if there is really any clean air gain at all. Your truck might pollute less, but there is a ton of pollution generated to produce & handle the DEF.
Logistics Pro
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,529
Likes: 390
From: SEVA
Reminds me of hearing about how the carbon footprint that's produced to manufacture a hybrid's or electric car battery is larger than what a fossil-fueled car would ever make.
Logistics Pro
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 3,674
Likes: 51
From: SoCal
It would be interesting to compare how much pollution and waste is generated producing, packaging, shipping, & storing DEF to the amount of pollution reduced in engines that use it.
I work for an equipment company that sells & uses DEF in off road equipment. We buy, sell, & use many, many pallets of DEF in 2.5 gallon boxes yearly. It comes to us in a diesel burning 18 wheeler, we have to fire up a gas or diesel powered fork lift to unload it, spewing pollutants. The DEF is on a wooden pallet (trees chopped down), wrapped in plastic (made from oil or natural gas). Each box is made of cardboard, inside is more plastic, a jug. When the jug is empty it and the box goes right to the landfill. The plastic that wrapped the pallet goes to the landfill too, I take the pallets home & burn them for heat. When a customer buys a couple of pallets of DEF, we load it on our diesel powered rollback & burn fuel & spew pollutants to deliver it. Think of all the pollution generated to do all that, & that does not even take in to account all the pollution generated to produce the stuff, or the precious water used.
I have to wonder if there is really any clean air gain at all. Your truck might pollute less, but there is a ton of pollution generated to produce & handle the DEF.
I work for an equipment company that sells & uses DEF in off road equipment. We buy, sell, & use many, many pallets of DEF in 2.5 gallon boxes yearly. It comes to us in a diesel burning 18 wheeler, we have to fire up a gas or diesel powered fork lift to unload it, spewing pollutants. The DEF is on a wooden pallet (trees chopped down), wrapped in plastic (made from oil or natural gas). Each box is made of cardboard, inside is more plastic, a jug. When the jug is empty it and the box goes right to the landfill. The plastic that wrapped the pallet goes to the landfill too, I take the pallets home & burn them for heat. When a customer buys a couple of pallets of DEF, we load it on our diesel powered rollback & burn fuel & spew pollutants to deliver it. Think of all the pollution generated to do all that, & that does not even take in to account all the pollution generated to produce the stuff, or the precious water used.
I have to wonder if there is really any clean air gain at all. Your truck might pollute less, but there is a ton of pollution generated to produce & handle the DEF.
In either case, that's not a good enough argument to do nothing. What really gets me though is the massive city sized container ships crisscrossing the globe each day. 16 of those suckers are pumping out more sulfur/nitrogen oxide pollution than all of the worlds cars....someone start regulating the **** out of those things, shipping prices will increase, and manufacturing locally will start to look more enticing....but that would require global agreement, we can't even agree from state to state.
Logistics Pro
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,529
Likes: 390
From: SEVA
In either case, that's not a good enough argument to do nothing. What really gets me though is the massive city sized container ships crisscrossing the globe each day. 16 of those suckers are pumping out more sulfur/nitrogen oxide pollution than all of the worlds cars....someone start regulating the **** out of those things, shipping prices will increase, and manufacturing locally will start to look more enticing....but that would require global agreement, we can't even agree from state to state.
Logistics Pro
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 3,674
Likes: 51
From: SoCal
Almost all, if not all of those ships are foreign flagged. About all we could regulate is what's allowed in our ports. The USA has managed to regulate itself out of several industries. I recall looking at the plans to build the 1st Disney ship and another huge RCCL cruise liner. Found we can't build ships like them in the U.S. because their atriums are considered a fire hazard by the USCG (fire can travel vertically and quickly to multiple decks). Yet when they're built and flagged elsewhere, we allow them to use our ports to carry U.S. citizens.
Its better than just putting your head in the sand and passing the buck to the next generation.
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Freshman User
Joined: Jun 2018
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Sounds like something that might eliminate active regens, but I don’t see it eliminating DEF. Why is DEF such a big deal? All that is required is a refill of the tank roughly every oil change. Costs about $20 and takes about 5 min if you’re using boxes. If you have a pump, it’s even faster. Of all the things to dislike about modern trucks, DEF is way down the list for me.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,377
Likes: 294
From: SE Michigan
Sounds to me like you're confusing DEF (diesel exhaust fluid; breaks down NOx emissions) with DPF (diesel particulate filter; soot; regeneration), which have nothing to do with one another.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,377
Likes: 294
From: SE Michigan
It would be interesting to compare how much pollution and waste is generated producing, packaging, shipping, & storing DEF to the amount of pollution reduced in engines that use it.
I work for an equipment company that sells & uses DEF in off road equipment. We buy, sell, & use many, many pallets of DEF in 2.5 gallon boxes yearly. It comes to us in a diesel burning 18 wheeler, we have to fire up a gas or diesel powered fork lift to unload it, spewing pollutants. The DEF is on a wooden pallet (trees chopped down), wrapped in plastic (made from oil or natural gas). Each box is made of cardboard, inside is more plastic, a jug. When the jug is empty it and the box goes right to the landfill. The plastic that wrapped the pallet goes to the landfill too, I take the pallets home & burn them for heat. When a customer buys a couple of pallets of DEF, we load it on our diesel powered rollback & burn fuel & spew pollutants to deliver it. Think of all the pollution generated to do all that, & that does not even take in to account all the pollution generated to produce the stuff, or the precious water used.
I have to wonder if there is really any clean air gain at all. Your truck might pollute less, but there is a ton of pollution generated to produce & handle the DEF.
I work for an equipment company that sells & uses DEF in off road equipment. We buy, sell, & use many, many pallets of DEF in 2.5 gallon boxes yearly. It comes to us in a diesel burning 18 wheeler, we have to fire up a gas or diesel powered fork lift to unload it, spewing pollutants. The DEF is on a wooden pallet (trees chopped down), wrapped in plastic (made from oil or natural gas). Each box is made of cardboard, inside is more plastic, a jug. When the jug is empty it and the box goes right to the landfill. The plastic that wrapped the pallet goes to the landfill too, I take the pallets home & burn them for heat. When a customer buys a couple of pallets of DEF, we load it on our diesel powered rollback & burn fuel & spew pollutants to deliver it. Think of all the pollution generated to do all that, & that does not even take in to account all the pollution generated to produce the stuff, or the precious water used.
I have to wonder if there is really any clean air gain at all. Your truck might pollute less, but there is a ton of pollution generated to produce & handle the DEF.
DEF is delivered in bulk via one of three ways: In a tanker (same as gasoline/diesel), in large portable (reuseable) bulk containers, and unit fill. None of these involve excess producing or disposing of packaging.
Fleet Owner
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 21,195
Likes: 306
From: Near Salmon Arm BC
It would be interesting to compare how much pollution and waste is generated producing, packaging, shipping, & storing DEF to the amount of pollution reduced in engines that use it.
I work for an equipment company that sells & uses DEF in off road equipment. We buy, sell, & use many, many pallets of DEF in 2.5 gallon boxes yearly. It comes to us in a diesel burning 18 wheeler, we have to fire up a gas or diesel powered fork lift to unload it, spewing pollutants. The DEF is on a wooden pallet (trees chopped down), wrapped in plastic (made from oil or natural gas). Each box is made of cardboard, inside is more plastic, a jug. When the jug is empty it and the box goes right to the landfill. The plastic that wrapped the pallet goes to the landfill too, I take the pallets home & burn them for heat. When a customer buys a couple of pallets of DEF, we load it on our diesel powered rollback & burn fuel & spew pollutants to deliver it. Think of all the pollution generated to do all that, & that does not even take in to account all the pollution generated to produce the stuff, or the precious water used.
I have to wonder if there is really any clean air gain at all. Your truck might pollute less, but there is a ton of pollution generated to produce & handle the DEF.
I work for an equipment company that sells & uses DEF in off road equipment. We buy, sell, & use many, many pallets of DEF in 2.5 gallon boxes yearly. It comes to us in a diesel burning 18 wheeler, we have to fire up a gas or diesel powered fork lift to unload it, spewing pollutants. The DEF is on a wooden pallet (trees chopped down), wrapped in plastic (made from oil or natural gas). Each box is made of cardboard, inside is more plastic, a jug. When the jug is empty it and the box goes right to the landfill. The plastic that wrapped the pallet goes to the landfill too, I take the pallets home & burn them for heat. When a customer buys a couple of pallets of DEF, we load it on our diesel powered rollback & burn fuel & spew pollutants to deliver it. Think of all the pollution generated to do all that, & that does not even take in to account all the pollution generated to produce the stuff, or the precious water used.
I have to wonder if there is really any clean air gain at all. Your truck might pollute less, but there is a ton of pollution generated to produce & handle the DEF.
But there is huge money in selling it and developing and making the systems, so massive corporations will never let it die, it is too lucrative.
It is about the money grab, not the environment.
Heck just making all the parts to go on a truck, make the def, haul the def, and such is a massive amount of pollution.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,592
Likes: 204
Now I’m no tree hugger and I don’t care who deletes, but I’d rather base these conversations on facts.