Yeah, even the Jeep ZJ used the power steering (I think?) as it's adjuster.
But one of the ways they improve the traction/surface area equation is to wrap the belts more fully around the pulley too. I don't know if all of them do it, but all the ones I can remember had some pretty good wraps, especially on the alternators.

Even that Jeep that didn't have a tensioner though, did still have at least one idler pulley still. Maybe two. This I suppose is to help in areas where there is either too long of a trip between pulleys, but serves to get that extra wrap too.
Thanks

Paul

 

Hi there FB.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha , you're on !

But !

I'm going to have to persuade him not to.

See you in his build thread.

 

Excellent write-up Aaron! This will be helping people for years to come.

 

Very nice Arron. I don,t have the attention span for those kind of projects anymore.I would like to hear all about how it works when? up and running.

 

Now, make duplicate parts and sale as kit. Make some money off your hard work. Or sale your design to some company. Awesome work.

 

First, let me say that I'm overwhelmed with the amount of positive responses to this thread and by many trusted/knowledgeable users on this website. I'm grateful to everyone for contributing and for providing some feedback on this venture. I really appreciate the comments and suggestions - please keep them coming! Good or bad, I don't mind if those with alternative opinions chime in because it makes for a more robust discussion.

UPDATE: The thread has been updated with the 2.625" (2-5/8") measurement for the long upper alternator shim. I also listed the old alternator shim (2-11/32" or 2.34375") for reference. Many of you may be thinking that the new alternator shim is only around 3/8" longer than the original - and that's true. There are likely 3 reasons for this (that I can think of):
1) The measurements (above) for the new 1" round stock steel shim were done with the alternator loose, but the bolt was tightened down. Therefore, the alternator had SOME play/maneuverability while I was making my measurements, accounting for some level of error.
2) The bolt was shortened AFTER the shim was made to accommodate the full length of the completed set-up. I took off 3-4 threads of the 7/16" (7" long) bolt to start, still had excess, so I continued to take off more, but only little by little until I ended up with approximately 0.5" take off of the bolt.
3) The "tight" condition (everything cinched down and in-place) of the alternator set-up will force everything to "shrink" a bit, thereby decreasing the overall size of the shim required.

In summary, the alternator set-up is a trial-and-error process. Like I mentioned above, start with 0.500" + 2.34375" = 2.84375" of material on your shim, and grind down the excess until your alternator pulley is in alignment with the crank. For me, the shim was 2.625" long when complete, so I ground off quite a bit of material from where I started.

Okay.. now that the long-winded explanation is over lol... I also added two part #'s for the alternator brackets for reference.

Upper alternator bracket is: D4AE-10156-BA
Lower alternator bracket is: D3AE-10145-DA

Brownie points for whoever can find part numbers for the power steering brackets. I couldn't find them with all that POR-15 covering everything.

That's a real compliment coming from you Flowney! Thank you sir I didn't use a clean-cut method for posting pictures like you do on your bent frame rebuild thread - kinda wish I would have.

Thanks!

Grab your bounciest $20. They dried over night lol. You'd think I would recieve a sponsorship from POR-15 by now... Guess I should stop holding my breath



Thanks - the block was painted with POR-15's Engine Enamel. The colour is Buick Green.

Que the rotten vegetable throwing for painting a blue oval motor a Government-Motors colour

Many thanks for the compliment! 75BigBlock nailed it - less v-belt slippage due to increased surface area of the belt. 1TonBasecamp also nailed it - less parasitic drag. In theory, I should receive some level of increased efficiency in both power output and in MPG. However, I would argue with that statement that increased levels of friction on the motor (due to larger surface area belts) will actually decrease my MPG and my power output because of all the friction the belts/pulley will generate.

Correct, you can swap these out in a pinch. You'd need a ratchet, and a few sockets, but it could be done very easily. Otherwise, I did this upgrade to be different and because I truly hate V-belts.

My original hope was to get a system that used the exact same belt length so that no matter what - you could keep a single belt on board and still have the ability to swap it on either side. This COULD theoretically be achieved by modifying the upper alternator bracket slightly - the alternator has some level of travel that cannot be realized with the stock upper bracket - the alternator case strikes the bracket before it can get to its closest possible point on the engine. If I modify the bracket, I bet I could use two 44-5/8" belts - now THAT would be something to write home about.

Exactly Thanks for that comment.

 

Excellent suggestion on the belt tensioner tool! I had no idea those existed.

I can see myself purchasing one already, and in an effort to make this thread complete.... Does anyone have a set of Ford shop manuals for a mid-80's Ford with a 302?

If we could look up the belt tension specification, we could likely use that same tension spec on this set-up.

Technically you're correct on the serpentine system - it is just a multi-belt multi-groove system. The dream I had was indeed a single LONG belt with tensioners and idler pulleys - maybe this thread will morph into that over time? Who knows lol.

Thanks Paul! I'm getting anxious to post the results of this motor/set-up too. The engine is POR-15's Buick Green. The valve covers are POR-15's High Temp Flat Black. The Intake, oil pan, and water pump are POR-15's Top Coat "Silver" colour.

In all honesty, I'm taking a page out of SlikWillie's suggestion book. I'm taking my time with the build and enjoying every step of the way. With that said, I expect the motor will be fired for the first time in April. Maybe this weekend if I get my electrical stuff sorted out - but that's a tall task.

Correct - this may not give any benefits unless the fan is bypassed. All 3 accessories are still being used, so theoretically, I won't see any gains. In fact, I may eat more HP and MPG's due to the increased friction. I did this mostly for the squealing 3G alternator, and for an easier-to-maintain system. Serpentine belts are easy to diagnose, provide greater surface area, and are generally the way of the future. Que the millennial name-calling

Because this system is 100% reversible (I can still go back to v-belts if this idea craps the bed), it would be interesting to provide some MPG's and HP numbers with this set-up versus the old v-belt set-up. That would require dyno time tho - anyone want to start me a "go fund me" page for this set-up? Hahaha.

Agreed Paul. Changing the belts on these trucks sucks - part of the reason for this "upgrade" lol. I ultimately want a single belt with tensioners and idlers - but that's A LOT more work. Who knows what the future holds - this belt set-up may not work at all.

The good news is that I can go back to the original set-up quite easily.

I'll keep an eye on belt stretch. Maybe I should measure the belt with a piece of string and post up results of what it stretches to after X kms? Might be useful info and give some insight to how long these belts will last.

Increased wrap = increased efficiency from what I understand. Serp belts still slip just like V-belts. A perfect system would have 100% wrap, but that's for textbooks only (not real-world). The more wrap you have, the less slip you have.

I hope so! Thanks Oldstyle. Time will tell how useful this thread is lol.

Hopefully soon! I'll admit, it was a long process to get this all figured out. Particularly the pulley ratios.... so much measuring and tracking. Then the hardware...

Someone should start a list of the hardware on these trucks and their sizes. Ford sure likes the throw curve ***** with their random hardware (water pump hardware is fine thread but everything else on the entire vehicle is coarse thread)... geeeesh...

Ha! I wish! Watch, now someone will take this thread and turn it into an "ebay kit" lol.

I've had wayyyyy too much free advice (and good advice at that!) from this forum to warrant selling everyone a kit. Plus, we all know that we're here for the free stuff. I'm just trying to contribute when I can

 

I think you *may* have misunderstood my stretch belt comment. Some manufacturers are using belts that can only be installed by using a special tool to stretch the belt over the pulleys. There is no tensioner and all the pulleys are in fixed positions. A royal pain and one more tool I will have to buy for occasional use.

 

Yup! Completely misunderstood your comment. I also didn't know that either! Great info, glad I don't have a vehicle that requires a special stretch tool.

 

Didn't know that either. I'll have to look up that tool. Wonder if it's easier than it sounds, or a real pain to work with?

Paul

 

Regarding the measurement and adjustment of belt tension, wouldn't the same principles apply for V belts and multi-rib belts w/o tensioners? That is, you measure the deflection that finger pressure produces and decide whether it's too loose or too tight or just right.
In my early days, I worked in a gas station where we were required to check belt tension that way and try to sell V belts. We were taught that one inch was OK.

 

I work at a dealership. What I do is pluck the belt like one would with a guitar or bass. I feel for a certain vibration. Since I go by feel I can't give a real spec or even give a description of the vibration I look for, it is just a sweet spot between belt squeal and the bearings crying for mercy. Doesn't matter what type of belt I am using, I do it the same way every time.

 

Excellent thread Aaron-71 - well done! I'm heading to the pull 'n pay this weekend . . .

 

Great info on belt tensioning. I was tempted to buy a tool to measure the tension, but I don't have a spec to get within... so there's not much point yet. Still good info that it's just "adjust as necessary".

So I'm looking at my 2014 F150 today... it's got the 5.0 Coyote. It's got 2 belts to run everything, some idlers and a tensioner. By all indications, it's a serpentine belt set-up.

Using some logic and wording convention here, doesn't that make this a "serpentine belt set-up" too?

Tensioners and idlers don't make the serpentine set-up. The belt(s) do.

Not trying to throw stones at people, but maybe others can explain their methodologies for naming convention to compare to the one I just gave. I still see this as a serpentine set-up

I haven't run the motor yet, but am getting a lot closer.

Attachment 285573

 

The way I see it, you can name what ever in hell you want too. You put it together, didn't you. You won't go to the parts store and ask for a multi-ribbed belt. They'd look at you like you have something growing out of your forehead. And it sure as hell ain't listed that way online either. You'd ask for a serpentine belt.