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I've now put over 200 kms (approx 150 miles) on the motor with the serpentine system installed.
I ran into 1 rather large issue with the cooling system - the lower radiator hose kept collapsing at WOT and high rpm cruise conditions. The solution was to add a second lower radiator hose spring to conversion.
Here are some pictures.
Stainless lower rad hose spring from CJ Pony Parts - Part Number: 100-RHS-BB
Same lower spring that was already installed, just adding another one for the second half of the lower rad hose.
Picture of where it needs to go.
Installed in the hose. No picture of the lower rad hose reassembled.
After installing the second spring, I removed the first spring and intertwined both springs together at their junction point inside the aluminum elbow. I basically stretched the first spring slightly, and looped it through the second spring so that they act as a single spring. They'll never come apart unless they rust apart.
I reinstalled the lower rad hose, along with a 13 lb Motorcraft pressure venting cap (spring loaded).. That Champion 13 lb cap was suspect for part of my overheating problems.
I am very happy to say that the motor does not overheat anymore, and this is a necessity for the lower radiator hose. Everything is working wonderfully.
I found it very difficult to source a lower radiator hose with an anti-collapse spiral at the usual auto parts outlets. Thus, it's good to know that one can acquire the spiral separately.
Stainless lower rad hose spring from CJ Pony Parts - Part Number: 100-RHS-BB
Need to make a note of that.
I found it very difficult to source a lower radiator hose with an anti-collapse spiral at the usual auto parts outlets. Thus, it's good to know that one can acquire the spiral separately.
Stainless lower rad hose spring from CJ Pony Parts - Part Number: 100-RHS-BB
Need to make a note of that.
Big correction on my part. Part number on the bag (shipped) is different from their website.
EDIT: Ignore that they say it's for a 65 - 73... that's mustang specific. When I called them over the phone, the customer sales rep was really confused that I was ordering this spring for a 1979 F-250 4x4 truck.
I've compared both springs that have been shipped to me - they're 100% exactly like the OEM spring that was originally inside my Ford 400 lower rad hose.... well at least what was left of my OEM spring lol.
We had a heat wave come through the city where I live (Regina, Saskatchewan).
Temperature was 33* Celsius (92* Fahrenheit) at 6 p.m. (without humidity), almost 40* Celsius (104 Fahrenheit) with the humidity.
Stop and go traffic with the serpentine set-up was not good. On my 30 km (20 mile) drive home, the mechanical fan could not keep up to the demands of the motor. I almost overheated twice, and had to pull over because the gauges kept creeping higher and higher. I avoided blowing a head gasket, but this is unacceptable... so time to make adjustments.
Bear in mind, I have not dialed in my timing on my motor and I am having difficulties with my current Chinese distributor (go figure ). My guess is that my difficulties with overheating are from a motor that's not dialed in correctly (timing, fuel, etc).... and the fact that I've introduced a sharp 90 degree elbow into the return coolant line (aluminum elbow).
Before I delve into tackling this "high than normal temps" issue.... I need some opinions from those of you following... particularly to tell whether or not I did indeed see "higher than normal temps".
Given the same temps in your local area, what kind of temperatures does everyone else see on their gauges when they drive their trucks in a heat wave?
Does anyone else experience overheating symptoms when driving in abnormally hot weather? I'm trying to determine just how "bad" my motor is cooling by comparison to others who haven't done this mod yet.
An electric fan is in the works, so that may be the ticket to completing this mod. It doesn't solve the issue with the elbow in the system, but I have a solution for that too.
I think that you've already established that your new belt system is turning the water pump in the correct direction so we can scratch that. As well, the radiator itself is in good shape, right? Getting the timing right will establish a workable base line. The 90º elbow might be something to look into but first you want to make sure that you are maximizing air flow through the radiator. Is there a working clutch on the fan and is there a fan shroud that is well sealed at the edges.
Interesting what you call a heat wave. Here in the middle of Georgia 100º F temps are the norm June through August. My '90 F-350 does just fine. It has the stock fan shroud and a clutched fan blade with a new clutch. It, too, uses Ford's version of serpentine belts (dual V is what Ford called it) on a 460 EFI engine. I did bypass the oil cooler so had to replace the lower rad hose with a 351 hose. I also replaced the thermostat with a 180º unit.
Some people resort to using an electric "pusher" fan in addition to the mechanical belt driven fan but I think that you want the stock configuration to work.
I think that you've already established that your new belt system is turning the water pump in the correct direction so we can scratch that. As well, the radiator itself is in good shape, right? Getting the timing right will establish a workable base line. The 90º elbow might be something to look into but first you want to make sure that you are maximizing air flow through the radiator. Is there a working clutch on the fan and is there a fan shroud that is well sealed at the edges.
Interesting what you call a heat wave. Here in the middle of Georgia 100º F temps are the norm June through August. My '90 F-350 does just fine. It has the stock fan shroud and a clutched fan blade with a new clutch. It, too, uses Ford's version of serpentine belts (dual V is what Ford called it) on a 460 EFI engine. I did bypass the oil cooler so had to replace the lower rad hose with a 351 hose. I also replaced the thermostat with a 180º unit.
Some people resort to using an electric "pusher" fan in addition to the mechanical belt driven fan but I think that you want the stock configuration to work.
Water pump turning correct direction? Check.
Head gaskets in correct orientation? (extra material tabs are at the front of the block) Check.
Radiator is a brand new aluminum Champion 3-row. I did paint the radiator with some flat black paint to give the front-end that stock look. I wonder if that's a restriction on airflow? Maybe a restriction on cooling capacity? If it is.. I feel foolish for painting it!
Fan is stock Ford 400 mechanical - no clutch.
Fan shroud is not 100% sealed to the radiator, but it's close. I do have a cracked edge or two on the shroud. Maybe I'll post up some pictures to give you guys an idea.
I figured my heat wave comment might raise some eyebrows lol. That's a heat wave to me, as I get to deal with -40 Celsius all the way through +40 Celsius throughout the year. A lovely range of 80 Celsius Lol
Thermostat I'm running is the 180* unit from TMeyer.
Electric fan I'm planning to run is the Mark VIII // Thunderbird 2-speed electric fan (the mother of all air pushers). When I do the electric fan mod, I will get rid of the mechanical fan completely.
You are 100% correct Frank. Hit the nail on the head. I want this serp conversion to work within the confines of a stock configuration with the exception of the pulleys, belts, and lower radiator hose.
One thing I should mention is the capacity of humid air to take on more heat. With the humidity we had last friday, I wasn't too surprised to see a big increase in engine temps because the capacity for the ambient air to take on more heat was greatly diminished by the amount of moisture already in the air. Maybe this was also a contributing factor to my problem. I certainly didn't expect this to create an overheating condition though...
------------------------------------ EDIT: Just remembered.... even though I almost reached an overheating condition... the coolant bypass in the radiator cap was never activated. I spilled ZERO coolant out onto the road, even though the temps were going on the high end of the gauges.
I have a brand new Motorcraft 13 LB radiator cap with the vent/lever for allowing air to escape.
I'm guessing that I just found my problem? The system isn't pressuring properly... or it's possibly over-pressurizing but the cap won't allow coolant to escape.... hmm....
-------------------------------------
To be honest, I'm not very satisfied that the truck doesn't want to run cool in 100F temps... doesn't seem right to me. However, I do believe that the 90 degree bend is creating some SERIOUS losses in the energy of the returning coolant. Fluid Dynamics 101... bends create losses in any system. Hooray for finally putting Fluid Dynamics to use? Lol.
I would think you have worked all the air out of the system, but an air pocket could be a problem.
My summers are often in the temperature range you describe. I don't have a problem going down the highway, but it will get warmer through town. My electric fan keeps it cool in town. It does spike in temp after I turn everything off and often will spit out coolant. I'm building a new engine so I'm not terribly worried about tracking down any problems on this one.
Got the system working as it should. The elbow in the coolant return line was not the problem. The problem was that I had the timing on the 400 wayyyy wayyy down. It was overheating because total timing was much too low and the exhaust gases were not escaping the chambers when they should have.
Total timing set to 34 degrees BTDC, now it's running like a champ.
Will continue to update if anything changes, but I think I've got it cinched.
That 34 is not too high for most engines, when you're talking about total advance. Sure, as an initial setting that's off the charts, but many engines run just fine with that. As yours seems to as well.
And frankly, if it's running well, you're on to something good at least!
It is a 335 engine after all. And they can be very finicky. Maybe your damper ring has shifted the timing marks, and maybe not. Maybe yours has just found it's happy place.
You and SlikWillie may be talking about two different things though, since he said his is back to 12, and that sounds like initial base timing. Not the "total timing" you're referring to.
But along those lines, what does that 34 degrees equate to in base timing in your case?
I experimented with my 302 by turning the timing up and up to see what it would tolerate before pinging. Well, to my surprise it never did ping!
I got to the point, at about 22 degrees that it would hardly run, but it never pinged under any kind of load. I'd tried that with other engines and always found a limit. This one would just star running like crap, starting at about 18 degrees initial (was fine at idle of course, just would not take much load) until I turned it back down.
Would run well with 14 initial, but was always happiest overall when set at about 12° initial base timing.
Now, my 400 (which is what you guys are talking about anyway) with it's stock setup (carb, jetting, air pump, stock exhaust (no cat on my model) and all that, would barely tolerate 12 degrees and loved to ping if I got near that setting.
Hard to remember since I haven't had to set it in so long, but I think I settled on between 8 and 10 for the 400. We'll see how that all plays out with all the new fun stuff I put on it.
Good luck. Hope the heat stays away and the performance settles in for the long haul!
That 34 is not too high for most engines, when you're talking about total advance. Sure, as an initial setting that's off the charts, but many engines run just fine with that. As yours seems to as well.
And frankly, if it's running well, you're on to something good at least!
It is a 335 engine after all. And they can be very finicky. Maybe your damper ring has shifted the timing marks, and maybe not. Maybe yours has just found it's happy place.
You and SlikWillie may be talking about two different things though, since he said his is back to 12, and that sounds like initial base timing. Not the "total timing" you're referring to.
But along those lines, what does that 34 degrees equate to in base timing in your case?
I experimented with my 302 by turning the timing up and up to see what it would tolerate before pinging. Well, to my surprise it never did ping!
I got to the point, at about 22 degrees that it would hardly run, but it never pinged under any kind of load. I'd tried that with other engines and always found a limit. This one would just star running like crap, starting at about 18 degrees initial (was fine at idle of course, just would not take much load) until I turned it back down.
Would run well with 14 initial, but was always happiest overall when set at about 12° initial base timing.
Now, my 400 (which is what you guys are talking about anyway) with it's stock setup (carb, jetting, air pump, stock exhaust (no cat on my model) and all that, would barely tolerate 12 degrees and loved to ping if I got near that setting.
Hard to remember since I haven't had to set it in so long, but I think I settled on between 8 and 10 for the 400. We'll see how that all plays out with all the new fun stuff I put on it.
Good luck. Hope the heat stays away and the performance settles in for the long haul!
Paul
Thanks for your comments Paul.
My base timing at that time was set somewhere around 16 degrees. My mechanical advance has 18 degrees worth of timing, so that's where my total advance of 34 came from.
Currently, I turned it down just a little bit to 14 degrees + 18 mechanical makes for a total of 32.
And it's high time I update this thread again. I've got 750-ish kilometers on the motor with the serp belt set-up described above.... and it runs amazing.
The alternator chirps for the first 2-3 seconds on cold start-up, but goes away after that and doesn't come back. I can stab the throttle, romp on the pedal, and it's nothing but engine noise - no squealing.
The coolant temps are down nice a low with this set-up, even though it has that nasty 90 degree elbow in the lower coolant hose. A big contributor to my coolant temps being so low is the fact that I have 2 radiator hose springs inside the lower hose - one on each half of the hose, and they're intertwined with each other inside the aluminum elbow. There's no chance of them ever getting sucked up into the water pump because they have a 90 degree bend to go by.
On my factory temp gauge, it reads a consistently JUST before the "N" in " \_NORMAL_/ ". On my aftermarket mechanical temp gauge (inside the thermostat housing), it equates to somewhere around the 170-ish mark... and I have a 180 thermostat in the motor so that's just about perfect given my ability to read the gauge accurately, and that fact that it's a cheap $20 Equus gauge.
I can honestly say that I'm very happy that I did this abnormal upgrade to the 400. No more V-belts!
In the 750 kms I've driven, I've had the pedal to the floor and reached 5,400 rpm... let off for a half a second, then stabbed it to the floor again.... the belts never flew off, or squealed or nothing. All my squealing came from the tires
I'd recommend this upgrade to anyone willing to spend the time. It's not a simple upgrade and it doesn't have provisions for an A/C unit... but damn is it ever nice to be able to simply "slip" a belt off when working on the truck rather than fighting with it... That, and I haven't "glazed" anything since I got rid of the V-belts.
Update time. It's spring, and I've been burning rubber again
I have yet to drive this serpentine set-up in some scorching hot weather, but this set-up is work quite well even after 1500 kms on it. Temp gauge still reads nice and low (just below N in NORMAL), even after I've been stomping on the pedal for 10 consecutive red lights while driving in stop-n-go traffic. Call it "spirited" driving
Small chirp still exists on cold start-up, and it's coming from the alternator. Lasts 2-3 seconds then disappears. No chirping unless the motor has sat over night.
I've had to take the alternator off the truck a couple of times for various reasons, and I must report that it's a treat to be able to remove it so easily. I hated that old V-belt set-up. What a piece of junk it was.
I'll never look back unless I absolutely have to. On that note, I may have a shop in Regina fabricate me a 0.055" aluminum spacer to go between the harmonic balancer and the crank pulley; I don't like the idea of using washers, but they're working VERY well.
06-04-2018, 09:23 AM
). My guess is that my difficulties with overheating are from a motor that's not dialed in correctly (timing, fuel, etc).... and the fact that I've introduced a sharp 90 degree elbow into the return coolant line (aluminum elbow).
