6.0L Power Stroke Diesel 2003 - 2007 F250, F350 pickup and F350+ Cab Chassis, 2003 - 2005 Excursion and 2003 - 2009 van

05 F-350 Stumble Then Dies P0500, P0341, P2614

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Old 02-06-2018, 07:08 AM
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05 F-350 Stumble Then Dies P0500, P0341, P2614

Hello ran into some trouble this week with my 6.0L. Looking for some suggestions. To give you some history on my vehicle I have done some of the basic maintenance items such as blue spring upgrade, new standpipes, replaced FICM power board, new EGR, new oil cooler and I am currently using a LiveWire TS to monitor engine data. The truck has never been tuned and other than the maintenance items and turbo back exhaust it’s completely stock. Now the problem.

I apologize in advance for being so long-winded but I figured the more information the better.

Was driving along and that truck just shut off. It Immediately re-started and ran but would sputter under acceleration. I was less than a mile from home and was able to limp it home. There was no engine light so I decided to scan for codes using the Livewire TS. The only code was P0500 speed sensor. I took a quick look at the speed sensor wiring at the rear and everything looked OK as far as I could trace it. I cleared the code and attempted to drive the truck again. This time I went less than a half a mile before the engine shut off again. Each time I attempted to start it the truck would start but as soon as I pressed on the accelerator and or put it in gear it would shut off again. While sitting on the side of the road attempting to start the vehicle and get it back to my house I was looking at the data on the LiveWire TS. The alternator voltage was strong and consistent, the FICM output voltage was steady at 49 V, the oil pressure Bill fast and well over 1500 psi while cranking and the cranking RPMs were sufficient. Those items as well as engine oil and coolant tamps were the only thing I had up on the screen. Eventually I got the vehicle to stay running long enough to get it back to my house. Once back at the house I scanned for trouble codes again and the P0341 and the P2614 codes appeared. Seemed easy enough and made sense why the motor would cut off if I had an intermittent signal to the cam sensor. I checked all the wiring going to the cam sensor as well as the connector, tested the resistance on the cam sensor .8 ohms everything looked OK but I decided just to replace it as it may be intermittent. After replacing the sensor I cleared the codes and drove around my yard trying to re-create the problem. I drove a short while before the truck sputtered a little, and then it seem to drive OK without incident. I tried to wiggle the wires to the cam sensor and the harnesses on in around the engine and PCM To see if I could get the problem to reoccur I didn’t feel comfortable that the problem was solved. The next morning I started the truck and let it idle for a while and it started to sputter when I hit the accelerator or brake (it is cold here and it was on high idle) I press the accelerator a few times and as it accelerated up it would turn off it did this a few times after a restart and finally would not restart. I scanned the computer and have no codes. I have a Schrader valve on the top of my fuel filter housing so I decided to put a pressure gauge on and check the fuel pressure at crank. With key on engine off I have 55 psi at the secondary filter. I want to be careful on how I proceed And I don’t want to create any new problems while the current problem is active. Any advise would be helpful.
 

Last edited by MaxOut; 02-06-2018 at 07:46 AM. Reason: Misfire
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Old 02-06-2018, 08:16 AM
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Start unplugging vref stuff to see if stays running? Disconnect the brake switch?
Things like the EBP, MAP, ICP, etc.........just throwing ideas out there. Sounds like a short somewhere wacking things out.
 
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Old 02-06-2018, 08:22 AM
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Also, the root cause of that speed sensor code probably hasn't been resolved either.
 
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Old 02-06-2018, 08:30 AM
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Im not familiar with all the acronyms so bear with me. I agree it seems to be a short of some sort. I’m not sure if the P0500 speed sensor code is related to the problem or even if the cam sensor codes are. I read on here that several attempts at starting the engine can throw the cam sensor codes and I was trying to start the engine before these codes appeared. Whatever the issue is it seems to have gotten worse because now I have a no start situation. The batteries are new and all of the connections are fresh and clean. I have not checked all of the grounds thoroughly. When the vehicle cuts off the voltage stay steady and the PCM does not reset so I don’t think it’s a main power issue.

Bismic- Do you think the speed sensor code could be related to my current issue if so what would you suggest?
 
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Old 02-06-2018, 09:08 AM
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I was thinking that it might if there was a wiring short, but doing a little research, that seems highly unlikely:

For the P0500 there was a Ford Broadcast memo about a wiring short behind the degas bottle, but when looking that up it seems that it would typically short out on a brake line clip and just shorting that sensor to ground. Other possibilities are a loose fuse #11 in the engine compartment fuse box or the ground in front of and below the driver side battery.

Common wire chafing locations to check:
Exhaust Back Pressure (EBP) sensor bracket at thermostat housing
Around the thermostat housing and idler pulleys
Right valve cover at glow plug control module (GPCM) and artound the glow plug relay bracket
Front left of intake manifold near breather tube and air inlet duct
Around the idler pulley under the thermostat - wiring routed around the power steering pump
CKP wiring near A/C compressor and belt tensioner
Accelerator Pedal pivot point (under dash) at steering column - adjustable pedals only
PCM harness at battery box
PCM harness near the relay box brackets at the left rear corner of the engine compartment.
Wiring to #5 injector. (3rd back passneger side) the heater hose clamp rubs through on the early built units.
12A581 harness circuit 1044 (WH/YE) near connector C1443 (left rear corner of engine compartment). Note: this circuit is for the Fuel Heater supplied from the BJB Fuel heater relay (if so equipped). It is Power/Voltage at all times.
 
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Old 02-06-2018, 09:26 AM
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Would a cooling fan harness/plug also mess with this?

I know on some of the 7.3's the CPS does some really screwy stuff when it acts up.
 
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Old 02-06-2018, 12:06 PM
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Thanks for the advice, I have spent the last couple hours digging around for a chafed wire or poor connections to no avail. I did find one wire where the loom was shaved and the wire exposed going to the thermostat housing sensor which I assume is the coolant temperature sensor. I taped, put new loom and friction tape over that connection. There were several areas that I noticed pressure points on loom and wires but none of them cut through. I also thoroughly went through both fuse panels and checked all of the fuses for continuity and made sure they were all inserted and tight. I pulled out the air filter housing in intake tubing going to the turbo and inspected all of the wiring underneath and the connections going to the FICM. It’s clouding up here and getting ready to rain so I had to wrap it up. I did try to crank it over once I got it all back together and still no stars. I plan to pull the driver side battery and inspect the connections again beneath him at the PCM just to be sure. Any other suggestions would be helpful thank you.
 
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Old 02-10-2018, 10:24 AM
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Well I finally had some time to get back to it. I followed the troubleshooting procedure step-by-step and trace the wires and checked everything out going from the PCM to the cam sensor and everything checked OK and was unable to re-create a short or open. I ordered a wireless OBD II adapter and installed the Fusion the software on my iPhone hoping I could monitor some of the PID’s. It appears this software has limited PID’s even if you buy the enhanced package. It did however have a “CMP to CKP Synchronized” and it says no sync? The status of it didn’t change with key on engine off or during crank. I am unable to start the truck.I have not checked the crank position sensor as I did not get a code for that. Should I look there or what would cause the no Sync? I did what Was suggested Here and checked all of the plugs and harnesses as well as I could and didn’t find anything suspicious. However I’m not sure if I knocked it when I was removing the air cleaner and batteryhousing but the large diameter red wire on the driver side battery terminal that’s bolted to the main wire at the terminal had become loose. I retightened that but it didn’t change anything still no start. I’m trying to be as detailed as possible any advice would be greatly appreciated unfortunately I am getting rained on again so it will be tomorrow before I can get back to it.
 

Last edited by MaxOut; 02-10-2018 at 10:26 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 02-11-2018, 02:24 PM
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Sure sounds to me like you have something related to no cam/crank syn

Did you check the crank sensor plug and wiring? Take it off to inspect it?
 
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by navistarnut
Sure sounds to me like you have something related to no cam/crank syn

Did you check the crank sensor plug and wiring? Take it off to inspect it?
Yeah I wish it would stop raining so I could get out and take a better look. I tested the cam sensor wiring but not the Crank so I’m going to check there. I had a pretty solid RPM reading so I figured the Crank sensor would be OK but now I’m at a point where I need to look further. Thanks
 
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:25 PM
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The crank sensor wiring around the A/C compressor and belt tensioner was on the list posted earlier.

With no cam/crank sync, I would think that should be high on the list to check.

Edit - I see you stated earlier that "you had a pretty solid rpm signal". That probably says the sensor is ok, but it could still be a periodic short in that wiring. Please confirm that when you are experiencing the no-start, it does have a cranking rpm reading? Also, what is the cranking IPR % duty cycle?

That said, it is unusual to have a P0341 and a P2614 without really having a CMP issue.

Here is the CMP troubleshooting document. It says the ohms should be between 800 and 1000.

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/a...4&d=1350773182
 
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by bismic
The crank sensor wiring around the A/C compressor and belt tensioner was on the list posted earlier.

With no cam/crank sync, I would think that should be high on the list to check.

Edit - I see you stated earlier that "you had a pretty solid rpm signal". That probably says the sensor is ok, but it could still be a periodic short in that wiring. Please confirm that when you are experiencing the no-start, it does have a cranking rpm reading? Also, what is the cranking IPR % duty cycle?

That said, it is unusual to have a P0341 and a P2614 without really having a CMP issue.

Here is the CMP troubleshooting document. It says the ohms should be between 800 and 1000.

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/a...4&d=1350773182
UPDATE- Bismic- First off thanks again for your help. I realize yesterday the app I was using was a little glitchy and I did not have an issue with cam/crank sync. I downloaded the beta version of FORscan for my laptop and seems to be 1000 times better than the OBD Fusion app on my iPhone.
I did follow the CMP/Crank troubleshooting procedure to check the cam and crank sensors and they both check good. I was not able to duplicate any short or open circuit to either circuits and traced the wires as best I could. They both ohm out correctly at the PCM plug.

I got to thinking and went back to a post you made in the tech articles regarding no start. And one of the line items was “no fuel” so I decided to go ahead and change both fuel filters as they were overdue. Not sure if this is of any importance but when I remove the upper filter the fuel slowly drained from the bowl. I turned on the ignition and the ball refilled and did not drain. The lower filter I removed and captured the fuel to inspect for water and or debris. The fuel had very little water in it but quite a bit of sand and debris. After I replace the filters and primed I attempted to start with no success. I did get a little stumble here in there like it was trying to start but didn’t.

At this point I am at a total loss. I decided to use the new software and capture some data in hopes that you may see something indicating the problem. The software I had before would not read ICP data this new software does. I made two attempts to crank with no star in captured the data log. I had FICM sync and crank/cam sync. I took a picture of the log and will post it here.
 
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:21 AM
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I wonder what is going on with the FICM sync going on and off?

Also, the IPR %Duty cycle is pretty high when cranking. Maybe got a little dirty from the oil cooler work?

Just a suggestion on fuel - get a fuel pressure gauge. Also, stay on top of the filter changes! Low fuel pressure can cause you to spend a lot of $$'s on injectors.
 
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bismic
I wonder what is going on with the FICM sync going on and off?

Also, the IPR %Duty cycle is pretty high when cranking. Maybe got a little dirty from the oil cooler work?

Just a suggestion on fuel - get a fuel pressure gauge. Also, stay on top of the filter changes! Low fuel pressure can cause you to spend a lot of $$'s on injectors.

I'm not sure on the FICM Sync? First time I used this app and thought it was normal? The oil cooler was replaced under warranty at about 50K and that was a long time ago. I'm at approx. 95K now and only other internal work since was upgraded stand pipes and dummy plugs. I have a fuel pressure gage but not perminently installed it goes on top of the fuel filter cap. I use the Livewire TS with EGT to monitor data on the go but may need to add a few gages. Could a Bad IPR cause a no start? Is there any other way to test?
 
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Old 02-21-2018, 03:38 PM
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Getting frustrated.. I spent a good part of the day chasing down wires. I pulled the IRP valve after doing a pressure test (It passed the pressure test) and it looked clean and screen 100% in tact, also wanted to inspect fully the wires under and going to the FICM. absolutely no signs of chafing but wrapped all the wiring with friction tape just to tighten it up a little.


Did bubble test and no bubbles but when I removed the secondary filter the fuel had drained out? I turned on the ignition and the bowl filled quickly and held the level once filled.


As you pointed out Bismic the FICM sync shows no sync until I start cranking then it cycles from in/out while cranking. The Crank and a Cam show in sync while cranking and I have steady RPM's.


When I initially had the issue with no start I disconnected the batteries to charge after cranking and when hooking the batteries back up noticed the heavy gauge wire on the drivers side B+ post was a little loose. I thought maybe I knocked it loose while disconnecting the leads, maybe it was loose from the beginning? looks like this lead powers the PCM ? maybe due to the poor connection it fried the PCM or FCIM? even though I am able to communicate with both through the OBDII port?.


If I have a good Cam/Crank sync and RPM signal should I still suspect them? Is it possible the FICM is having trouble syncing with the PCM? is their a way to determine that?


I'm really stumped on this one.. any help would be greatly appreciated.
 


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