I will only time by ear, I have the meter and I do check it once it's done just for curiosity, but every engine will act just a little different and I prefer to find that sweet spot. The actual number or manufacturer recommendation is pointless on a motor over thirty years old...

I agree with mccrobb about not seeing why people have this fear. If you time the motor so out of whack you hurt the engine you definitely can't hear.....any engine not in its sweet spot will let you know just by the way it runs and drives. There are so many things that go into how it runs that if you really wanted to do it proper you would need a few more gauges and meters to find what number the motor actually likes not just what number you or the manufacturer likes..

All this argument is really, perfectionists vs real world mechanics. We all have our own ways, I don't see how an exact number could have an exact result across everyone's motor. I think it's just up to your preferences and everyone will have their own.

 

I whole heartedly concur ! In addition to my truck, I own a 1965 L79 Corvette. I wouldn't think of going anywhere near it with my timing light. There are way too many variables like [in California] summer blends vs winter blends, octane fluctuations, outside air temp. this is not a subject to get hot about. It's called personal preference

 

You'd have to have three /new/ IPs, /new/ injectors and /in very good shape/ engines if you expect the same numbers.
I have no doubt that with all new parts, time it by the numbers and it will be consistent across multiple trucks, power and economy wise.
If you are buying new components? By all means, have it done 'right', and it'll probably be just fine.

But, you take three unknown worn IPs, sets of injectors which may be anywhere from new(1800 PSI) to nearly worn out(1400PSI), engines with lower compression(which might need slightly more advanced timing at the low end due to running cooler - especially for good starting), turbos(which will end up requiring more fuel and more retarded timing /at the upper end/), and you tell me that a single number will work for all vehicles? Nah...

Oh, and I have a set of timing gear - a Fox Valley luminosity probe and Snap On timing light. I haven't used it in 3+ years, though - I get better results by ear, just listening to the clatter(or lack thereof).

In that time, I've pulled IPs and injectors, rebuilt injectors and installed them, and installed multiple used IPs(I've re-sealed 3 IPs so far, along with swapping a couple for various reasons).

I've had good, consistent power across multiple years in my dyno runs, and had good mileage the entire time.

So, it obviously works.



I've thought about what it would take to actually make a gauge that would represent what I'm hearing, and I think it would need to be at least a real-time timing gauge that would report degrees of timing between the actual cylinder firing(luminosity probe) and TDC. That way you could watch it under varying load conditions and see where it would need to be adjusted.
For a 'number' adjustment tool that wouldn't require any 'feel', you'd need a computer that would take the timing advance, RPM, throttle position, boost and graph it all for you. AKA, a pretty complicated little box to tell you what the MK.1 human ear will tell you easily enough.

 

Ok, I didn't read through all of the posts here, but a lot of it seems like a serious derailing from the OP's question of where to hook up the boost switch for his water/meth system.

The switch is boost activated, and can be adjusted to come on at whatever boost level you choose. I have an ATS 093 setup, which made my water/meth install very simple. I have the boost reference for my switch and my boost gauge hooked into where the wastegate reference line used to be (my wastegate actuator is long gone). Also, the 093 intake hat has a handy 1/8" npt hole in the center - yet another easy spot to put the W/M nozzle. It doesn't get much more straight forward than that.

As for your scenario, I saw that you have some oil contamination in your boost line. I wouldn't think this is a big deal. You're not talking about much oil getting to the switch anyway, and you can mount the switch anywhere (mounting it higher than the charger would make oil getting up there pretty difficult). Plus, the boost switches aren't super expensive to replace if it does go bad in a few years.

 

Thanks for the answer to my question. Finally ! I also have an ATS turbo non waste gated . I do not have an eighth inch tapped hole in the center of the pressure chamber. I'm going to have to drill and tap the chamber to mount the w/m nozzle. The ATS intake box is in the way, so I only have a limited area to mount the nozzle. Can it be mounted off to one side, or does it have to be mounted directly on top ? How is your water meth system working for you ?

 

I would recommend getting it as close to the center of the bowl as possible, or plumbing it in the tubular part of the hat/charger before the large bowl - if that makes sense(?).

I got the Snow Performance 201 kit, which has a fairly large nozzle/holder assembly. I'm not sure if they are all that size or not. Luckily, I don't have the factory airbox or anything else to get in my way. So, I can't help you much there. I'm also not super familiar with how the older, non-gated turbo systems are set up. None of this stuff is rocket surgery though. Just try to get it to spray as evenly distributed across the cylinders as you can.

I'm thoroughly pleased with my W/M system! Do yourself a favor and get the biggest container you can for the liquid. My 201 kit came with a 3 quart cell that I thought would be plenty, but it isn't. I promise. Lol. I'm planning on mounting a 5 gallon fuel cell in my bed toolbox for the meth. I am currently running the 6gph nozzle, but it's getting switched out for the 9gph one when I find where I put it....
I just run distilled water for most of the year, and switch out to -20 deg windshield washer fluid in the winter months. I don't get quite the performance gain with just water, but it'll still set you back in the seat and it's cheaper.

 

It's interesting that you should bring up the tool box in the bed idea. My very first thought when I decided on a w/m system was: Not enough water storage. I re-installed the old tool box that has been laying next to the barn for years, and am in the process of installing a 5 gal tank along with the pump. I am waiting for a new pressure switch[ 2to 15 instead of the 6 to 30 that they sent ] to make the kit suitable for a turbo system that only runs with 8 lbs. of boost max. Thanks again for the response.

 

Yep. I'm a big fan of the bed mounted reservoir. I also have my pump mounted under the bed. My Snow kit even came with just enough tubing to reach the intake. Bonus points there. Lol.

I have mine set to come on at just over 5 psi, and it'll boost me up to 12 psi on meth and 10ish on water. EGT's also immediately stop climbing as soon as it kicks on. I'm thinking the 9gph nozzle might help bring my temps down when it hits.

 

That's what I'm interested in. Drop in EGT. Not so much an increase in power. I just got off the phone with R+D IDI Performance in Washington state. We were discussing pressure switch setting and nozzle sizing. The 9 gph nozzle is exactly what was recommended for an idi to lower EGT. Did you notice any increase in milage after your install?

 

I have a considerable pre-turbo exhaust leak on my truck, so I have to be kinda hard on the throttle to get 5psi. It would be hard to quantify any fuel mileage changes. What I have noticed is that my truck starts easier, smokes less, and runs smoother thanks to steam cleaning the combustion chambers.

 

I just came back from a road test after installing my water injection system. Not much difference !! I'm running a #5 nozzle, switch set at 5 lbs. of boost. 2 gallons distilled water to 1 gallon of -15 wsw fluid. I cross checked my installation, and the system is working. The only thing that I noticed was a really fast increase in boost pressure from 5 to 10 lbs under load. Larger nozzle ?

 

That's essentially what mine does with a 6gph nozzle; the charger gets driven substantially harder. I'm not sure how your nozzle numbering system works.
What about your EGT's? Are they still climbing, or do they plateau/drop?

I don't think I'm qualified enough to recommend nozzle sizing. There's an inherent danger when injecting a liquid into the cylinders and I don't want to lock your engine up. Lol. I can say that I'd be comfortable with around 10gph of meth based on what I've seen other guys run. One of these days I'll get around to swapping my nozzle out.

 

EGT is pretty much the same as it was before, and yes the temperature will continue to rise until I take my foot out of it...... just like before the installation. I know that the water is being injected by the increase in boost and spooling speed of the turbo. I have sent an email to Devils Own Injection, and am waiting for a reply.

 

I'd be interested in what they have to say. I doubt they'll have much specific info for our application, but it could still be good info.

I looked into your #5 nozzle on the Devils Own website, and it lists it as 520 ml/min. The label at the top of their page says it is a 5 gph, but 520 ml/min actually calculates out to 8.24 gph. So, I'm not sure how much you're actually spraying.

I know that R&D had a two stage meth kit on his Bronco that was spraying around 40gph at full tilt. His engine wasn't even close to stock though, and I don't know how much that plays into keeping a safe volume of spray.

 

<_< As long as the engine stays running, and the water doesn't pool somewhere and make it's way in in a big pool, you should be fine with whatever.

When I was like 14, I ended up pouring the entire output of a garden hose down into the intake manifold of an IDI while it was idling, trying to figure out how much water to use for an 'injection' setup. It didn't really notice it until I had the full output of the hose going down there, then it kind of quenched the idle a little...
Never killed the motor, though....
Current me is somewhat amazed at that.