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I have a project 83 f150 4x4. 3" body lift, 33" tires. A tired 302 with low oil pressure. A 3 speed Toploader with OD.
I'm slowly getting a replacement 302 together. The closer I get to pulling the old 302, the more I think about putting in a fresher trans too.
I have 2 options
I already have the small 5 speed Zf. But it is the 2wd tailpiece. I have read that trans needs all the guts pulled to install the 4x4 tailpiece. Not a task I'm willing to tackle right now.
Option 2, a M5OD online at a good deal. I wonder how fast that swap could go. Just to get me on the road until I can square out the Zf. Everyone online seems to recommend the Zf. So longterm I think a Zf will end up down there.
How involved would a 3 speed with OD Toploader to M5OD swap get? What might I be overlooking besides driveshaft length changes?
Well, he's going 5 speed to 5 speed, but it still might require 2 different driveshafts.
I was looking at the ZF5 swap for a 4.9, but since its 2wd with a 8.8 rear, it was a custom driveshaft job.
Not only do you have to look into lengths, you need a driveshaft that will mate to the rear and the trans.
Also Mechanical clutch to Hydraulic is a bit more involved ( I think you need newer pedals even to mate everything properly) But still a bit easier than auto to manual.
Not sure what rear is in your truck, but as you have a 4wd its gotta be a bigger, 10.25 or larger, diff. Anyway, there are likely driveshafts that are factory that would fit your truck. Not sure how your area is for old fords in the junkyards. You may want to hunt around for driveshafts as you could probably find both with some luck. Plenty of 87-97 trucks in my area, but bullnoses are scarce.
Both ZF5 and M5OD are hydraulic, so that part of it would be conversion work that would remain.
ZF5 did usually come in F250s and above, so you are probably right about the 8.8 rear custom driveshaft, but then again the rear portion at least would be the same as what he's got now and would use on any transmission in there.
Dunno about the front, but a conversion U-joint would solve the driveshaft to ZF later on.
Dunno also about overall length of ZF vs M5OD mated up to the transfer case. For that matter, will both trans hook up OK with the F150 TC? My guess would be yes, which would remove the conversion U-joint need from above.
I have a SROD trans 2WD in my '81 F100 and while the M5OD has some strength issues, IMO it's still better than the POS SROD. There is a pretty good write up on a 2WD version being built up in the Bumpside forum ('67-72). Make sure it's a cable speedo version or have access to a machine shop, or do w/o a speedo.
Starts here and goes some pages after this; read it through:
Well, he's going 5 speed to 5 speed, but it still might require 2 different driveshafts.
I was looking at the ZF5 swap for a 4.9, but since its 2wd with a 8.8 rear, it was a custom driveshaft job.
Not only do you have to look into lengths, you need a driveshaft that will mate to the rear and the trans.
Also Mechanical clutch to Hydraulic is a bit more involved ( I think you need newer pedals even to mate everything properly) But still a bit easier than auto to manual.
Not sure what rear is in your truck, but as you have a 4wd its gotta be a bigger, 10.25 or larger, diff. Anyway, there are likely driveshafts that are factory that would fit your truck. Not sure how your area is for old fords in the junkyards. You may want to hunt around for driveshafts as you could probably find both with some luck. Plenty of 87-97 trucks in my area, but bullnoses are scarce.
He might already have a hydraulic clutch, I think they got rid of the mechanical in 82 but I threw that in there so he could take a look and make sure.
The 4x4's used the same rearends as the 2x4's. Only the f250 and up used the 10.25 and larger dana rearends.
^^ Shows how much I know!!! Very helpful for OP though.
As far as I know the 8.8 inch rear did not ever get mated to a ZF5 from the factory though, or if it did, good luck finding one! Not to mention from what I've heard the 9 Inch was discontinued before the zf5 was introduced?
I know my 86 is Hydraulic. Not sure what year they dropped the mechanical.
To add to the fun though. OP will probably need different clutch disks to make sure the correct number of splines for each trans. I found that out with my 73 Triumph spitfire. The 73/74 used the older trans they used through the 60's but bumped up the size of the clutch disk to mate with the bigger 1500cc motor introduced in 73 (vs the older 1300cc motor) while keeping the same number of splines. I needed a different clutch disk to use the single rail 75-80 trans as the spline count was different on the newer and more durable trans
As you don't have to mess with the flywheel, your clutch disk size should be the same, but input shaft spline counts may differ. The same pressure plate should also work with both if that is the case
I looked on car-part.com and they show f150's having been fitted with zf 2wd and 4x4 trannies up through 1996, that's when I stopped checking. They are not the definitive source on how Ford equipped their trucks, but I do know a long time ago this was discussed and a guy on here said he knew of at least one year Ford did use the zf in the f150. Most likely to stand up behind the 351w.
I'm pretty sure the ZF came out after the end of 9" rear.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but 9" ended in '82, and first ZF was in '86.
And yes, my '85 F150 4x4 with NP435 is hydraulic clutch; not sure when mechanical went away and with what models/transmissions. Good point.
Who knows if the ZF could have been special ordered in a F150 behind a 4.9. Back in that era I think it might have been possible if you had the right dealer that would make the effort. But as far as I know, they were only in the heavier trucks.
I bought a new, special ordered 1996 F250 with a 5.8 (standard engine) and ZF trans. XL trim, no carpet, but it had the limited slip 3.55 rear, manual front hubs, AC, cruise control, and cloth seats. Damn, wish I hadn't sold that one! I think I paid in the $21K+ range for it.
It went to someone up north of Tampa someplace; I still look over there in craigslist ads to see if it will show up; Probably a mudded, wore out hulk or in a jy by now.
OP in post #1 said his 1983 F150 4WD has "a 3 speed Toploader with OD" which in reality is the 1978/83:
RUG SR-OD Single Rail 4 Speed Overdrive.
------------------------------------------------
ALL 1984/96 F150/350 & Bronco; 1997/98 F250 H/D & F350 have a hydraulic clutch.
Hydraulic clutch introduced in 1983 F250/350 with 6.9L diesel & 7.5L (460).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- fljab: 8.8" introduced in 1983 F100/150, Bronco & E100/150, but the 9" was still available.
Last year for the 9" in F150/Bronco: 1986 / Last year for the 9" in E100/150: 1987.
Pic: Trans Application Chart - Note the 1989 ZF applications:
I'm pretty sure the ZF came out after the end of 9" rear.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but 9" ended in '82, and first ZF was in '86.
And yes, my '85 F150 4x4 with NP435 is hydraulic clutch; not sure when mechanical went away and with what models/transmissions. Good point.
Who knows if the ZF could have been special ordered in a F150 behind a 4.9. Back in that era I think it might have been possible if you had the right dealer that would make the effort. But as far as I know, they were only in the heavier trucks.
I bought a new, special ordered 1996 F250 with a 5.8 (standard engine) and ZF trans. XL trim, no carpet, but it had the limited slip 3.55 rear, manual front hubs, AC, cruise control, and cloth seats. Damn, wish I hadn't sold that one! I think I paid in the $21K+ range for it.
It went to someone up north of Tampa someplace; I still look over there in craigslist ads to see if it will show up; Probably a mudded, wore out hulk or in a jy by now.
9 inch rear went way later than 82. They show it being available in 86. The problem being Ford did not just cut it out of production, they seemed to let it fizzle, the 8.8 and the 9 inch being available at the same time period for a couple of years. Car-part shows the first year for the zf to be 87. That would be the 87 model, which sold in late 86 so you are correct in a way on that
Thanks ND and Dave for the corrected word; good info for sure.
A little off topic, but:
Q: if the 9" was available up until '86 in the trucks, were they the later bolt pattern, or still 5 on 4-1/2? If yes, then the rotors on the front had to match (and are available), and if not, then the axles themselves were drilled for the later bolt circle.
Part numbers/availability of either?
Last edited by fljab; Sep 20, 2016 at 06:02 PM.
Reason: typo
I forgot about the hydraulic clutch. The guy I bought the trans from had it in a late 70s pickup (been a few years now, I forget his details) and told me all I had to do was get the hydraulic master cylinder, pedals, and hoses from a junk yard and mount it all. I figured it would take some bracket fabing. No biggie later on, I can cut and weld steel.
Ok, so the project will remain as a motor swap to get me through winter. Hahaha. Tee 'ol Toploader stays for now. I'll put my time later on into the zf5.
The truck is a 8.8 rear end.
So later on for the zf5:
Will cross member modifications need to be made?
Gearing for front and rear end changed maybe? (I havnt checked rear end gearing yet, but a diff gasket and pinion seal are needed) I wonder what a good gearing would be with 33" tires to give occasional expressway driving ability (but mostly around town)
Of course driveshaft lengths will probably change. Will it be just lengths?
The last question for now, what should I expect a shop to charge to change that 2wd tailpiece out to a 4x4 in the zf5? Or am I better off selling it and hoping to find a 4x4 zf somewhere?
We all learn from each other, and in some cases, from some members here like Number Dummy that knows more than the rest of us! When you do any of this work, please post w/pics.
Originally Posted by john carroll
So later on for the zf5:
Will cross member modifications need to be made?
I happen to have a complete 4x4 smallblock ZF setup out of a '88 F250 with a 302 (or so I was told, didn't see the truck). Anyway, here is a pic of the crossmember. It is offset; if you can't find a factory crossmember, then I'm sure you could fab something up. I was really lucky to find this in the Central Florida craigslit. SBF pattern ZF trans don't seem to show up that much around here.
This is planned to go in my '85 F150 with a 4.9, but I recently got a '81 F100 2WD that is taking my time. I promised wifey I'd sell the 4x4, but ssshhh, I'm stalling for time........
Originally Posted by john carroll
Gearing for front and rear end changed maybe? (I havnt checked rear end gearing yet, but a diff gasket and pinion seal are needed) I wonder what a good gearing would be with 33" tires to give occasional expressway driving ability (but mostly around town)
I have 31" tires with a NP435 and 3.55 gearing. Personally, I like that setup. It will do 75-80 if you want, but it's happiest ~65 or so. On the freeway, I just get in the slow lane and find no one really tries to push a well thrashed Bullnose F150 around too much. I have a very tired 4.9 six in it.
You could certainly go with steeper gears with a ZF. It would make 1st real low, but that's OK if you need the gearing to start with a load and/or up a hill. I'd say drive it a bit first, and of course figure out what's in there now.
Originally Posted by john carroll
Of course driveshaft lengths will probably change. Will it be just lengths?
The last question for now, what should I expect a shop to charge to change that 2wd tailpiece out to a 4x4 in the zf5? Or am I better off selling it and hoping to find a 4x4 zf somewhere?
I can measure the driveshafts from the pic above. These are reg cab long bed. It may not be exact for your needs if you're using the F150 transfer case. I'd think in any case you'll need to modify the length. Another reason to stay with the SROD until you can get the ZF setup together.
As said earlier, if you stay with the F150 TC, you won't need a conversion U-joint.
Not sure what all it takes to convert a 2WD ZF to a 4x4. Someone here may know, but start making some calls, and/or contact some trans specialists online that work on them.
