Alright, so a new dyno/testing shop opened locally for me.
They had their open house day/grand opening today, so of course it's time to put my truck on the dyno again.

So, for those who don't know, my vehicle is a 1988 F-250, extended cab, 4x4 with a ZF5 manual transmission.
I've got a stock-build rebuilt 7.3 bored .030 over, headstuds, Trick Flow valve springs, a Banks Sidewinder turbo, R&D 110 CC pump, and now a Hypermax Aneroid/Smoke Puff Limiter.

I turned the aneroid up a bit from where I normally have it to make sure I wasn't being limited at the upper end.

Got it on the dyno, and unfortunately didn't think to take pictures or have my friend record it. Darn.
It /sounded/ great, felt powerful and smoked a /lot/. I did notice a jump in power below the 1600 mark, probably when the aneroid opened up after getting 5 PSI of boost.

My curves are here(camera picture of light printout; I traced one of the sets of curves as best I could due to it being nearly invisible).

Now, while it /sounded/ far better than it did in September at Hunting for Horsepower, the numbers don't show it.
I'm thinking one of two things here:
1. I'm running my sidewinder to the point that it's actually eating more HP than I'm gaining.
2. This dyno is calibrated differently(More accurately?).
Here's some information about this shop/dyno: J&J Performance - About*our Dyno*****

Either way, it's pretty clear: I need a bigger turbo. Unlike in September, I was able to make a /ton/ of extra smoke with the aneroid "disabled", so that means I can just add more air and make significant power.

At this point in time, it looks like my best bet is a S366 turbo, at $500 it seems like a good option.

Anyway.. thoughts?

 

What were the numbers from the previous dyno?

 

Are you actually measuring your intake temps? I would think you'd benefit more from a good water intercooler setup. It's crazy how hot things get and air just aren't that efficient. Even a continuos highway drive with a 4klb trailer that kept my truck at 4psi at 65 I saw post turbo temps of 191f. Intake temps are super high considering mine draws from below radiator. Once I put cowl hood on I expect engine heat to leave through that instead of down and out front of engine. I can't imagine what intake temps are at 20psi plus

 

So are those three temps pre turbo, post turbo/ pre intercooler, and post intercooler?

 

That's correct, and my intake is fully sealed and pulling from below radiator so the high inlet Temps are from heat soaking on the pipes running in engine bay or hot air being forced out and below radiator. Those temp gauges and probes are only like $14 each on ebay too so cheap enough to temporarily add and make adjustments to your setup. I also have the banks down pipe into 4 inch exhaust, wicked wheel, intake is a 6x10 inch kn Intake into 3.5 to 3 and down to 2.5 turbo inlet. I do have temp sensor after cdr inlet to record that incoming temp but by hand feel it's not any hotter than inlet at filter, ir gun doesn't work on polished aluminum I need to paint spots or move probe to confirm.

 

I don't have a pic of them installed but they are installed externally on piping where green circles are surrounded/clamped on with 3 inch silicone couplers.I didn't want them in stream for boost leak and debris concerns.

edit i had probe locations reversed in the green circles for the IC piping but you can see where the actual clamps are in the pic below

 

Here's a pic i just took with everything installed, it ain't pretty but it works well

 

Your description of how the TE06H behaves is puzzling to me. If it were a simple case of being too small I would think it would still spool strongly and perform well at low to mid rpm's. But you are seeing low boost numbers and black smoke throughout the rpm range. This would indicate restricted intake, restricted exhaust, or something physically wrong with the turbo itself. The Banks down pipe is 2.5" if my memory serves me right, which should be adequate, and from your under the hood picture it looks like you have a nice big upgraded air filter. Somehow you are still not getting enough flow. Is the TE06H really that lame with regard to housing design and wheel fins etc.? I don't know if you follow Justin on the Facebook groups, but he is getting some very impressive results out of the stock 093 set up in Smogie. Much, much better than I ever would have expected out of a turbo that small (smaller than the TE06H). Maybe the Banks is just a really crappy design, but I would not let those results color your opinion too much regarding size. I think the S366 is maybe too big, especially with the .91 T4 housing. I think you might find the low and mid range response to be disappointing. I had Justin Wheeler build me a S360 with a machined out .85 T3 S200 exhaust housing and I was going to run that with a 110cc pump. I was willing to accept that it might be a little restrictive at the very top end in exchange for a robust and responsive bottom end. When I upgraded to a 150cc pump I knew the S360 wasn't going to cut it (especially with a .85 AR) and I bit the bullet and got an SX-E series R&D Stage 2 turbo to go with it. That is still only a 64.5mm turbo but Justin says it is plenty of turbo for the 150cc or 180cc pumps. Hairyboxnoogle got a S362 to run with his 110cc, probably .91 AR T4. The 110cc might spool the S366 decently enough, but something with a smaller wheel and/or smaller AR will clear the smoke quicker and have better low rpm response. I would definitely wait and see what Justin gets for dyno numbers out of his set up that he put together for yesterday's sled pull. About a 100cc pump on a stock turbo with 3" DP upgrade and CIA. It might change what you think about small turbos. I expect he will update here soon on FTE.

 

Yeah; I'm really not sure.

is the best I could find for a chart on this turbo.
2.75, because Banks didn't want to do anything standard I guess. >.<
That's what I'm afraid of. It was designed to be wastegated at 10PSI, but disabling that wastegate has only gotten me to 20 at the /best/ case. And the drive pressures had to be insane to do that - with stock valve springs, I was floating exhaust valves and bending pushrods when I hit that at full throttle up a hill.

I'd /like/ the smallest turbo I can that will give me, oh, 25-30 PSI of boost in the 2800-3K range, something that will give me the best low-end response I can. I will end up being intercooled(and possibly use a water misting setup to cool that if I'm hauling a heavy trailer)

I'm afraid of that, yes. I'm just not sure what I need.
Do you still have that? It sounds interesting.
That's where I came up with the 366; as far as I can tell, that's what he's using for the Stage 2 turbo, with slight mods. I'd love to buy something from Justin, but I really don't want to spend $1200 for a turbo, not if I can find them in the $5-600 range.

I know very little about turbos, I just want something that works better. I want to have enough air to totally max out my 110CC pump(which may be more like 120CC at this point, considering how much more smoke I got by messing with the governor).

Thanks for the help, BTW.


Edit:

So, I'm trying to figure out more turbo-related information.
I've been playing around with BorgWerner's calculator here: Long link

I've come up with the following insights:
As far as I can tell, these are the numbers I'm roughly aiming for:
3000 rpm @ 20 PSI = 810cfm(55.89 lbs/min), 2.3 pressure ratio
1600 rpm @ 10 psi = 310cfm(21.31 lbs/min), 1.65 pressure ratio
1200 rpm @ 10 psi = 232cfm(14.63 lbs/min), 1.65 pressure ratio
(I left 1200 and 1600 RPM at the same PSI because I've got no clue what I'd end up with at 1200 RPM... I just want something).

If the 3K @ 20 PSI number being 810 CFM is correct, that would explain my turbo problem - It's past the right side of the turbo map there... which explains all the back pressure, turbo hissing violently, etc.

Perhaps something like this might be good: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Borg-War...-/281485497983
Map: http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/files/p...rks/S200SX.pdf

 

Its been my experience, reading and watching the different builds, that the IDIs really like a little extra air if they can get it. This is the biggest reason for me choosing the S362 vs. the S258 that Justin offers. I couldnt justify the 364, even with injectables on a 110cc pump. Also, i wanted the smaller 68mm turbine for better response, which is available for the 364, but after some interweb wisdom, I decided that it could lead to surging if it was run hard on a larger engine like a 7.3 vs. something like a 6.0 or 5.9. The sxe's flow better and spool faster than the SX line, and again, if the interwebs are to be trusted, the 362 should spool like the old 360 if not better (think aurora 3000), and flow as much or better than the 363 (think, BD super B or equiv). With that information, and seeing how the S360 performed for Justin, and that a buddy of mine has a super B on a 400hp 24v and seeing how it works for him. By my thinking, the S362/68/.91 is the best option for a 5spd with a 110cc pump for towing / DD.

Back to the run, i am by no means an expurt at these things, but what confuses me is where you made peak torque. If the turbo was too small, it should be falling off hard up top, but strong on bottom. Judging by the numbers, and where they were made, my first instinct is to wonder about timing. Your peak numbers seems right, just really high in the revs. As others have said, this could be an indication of restriction somewhere too.

 

Originally I was going to go with one of the S256 turbos: either BW 317246 (.76 T3) or BW 317222 (.85 T3). Note the Aurora A2000 is a BW 317246 with a purple compressor housing. The specifications are 56/80 compressor and 74/65 turbine wheels, and rated to flow 877cfm (61 lbs/min.).

The problem with the S256 that you linked with the 1.22 AR T4 housing is that the compressor wheel is 56/70 (vs. 56/80) and the turbine wheel is 70/62 (vs. 74/65). I don't know the cfm for that turbo but it is definitely less than the two mentioned above. The smaller turbine wheel is more for a small displacement high rpm application. For a large displacement low rpm diesel, a larger turbine wheel is more efficient and responsive. Note that there is a S259 that flows less than the above 256's presumably because of its smaller turbine.

After seeing Justin's positive results with the A3000 and 90cc pump I decided I wanted to go that route instead of the S256. The A3000 specifications are 59/84 compressor and 74/65 turbine and a rated flow of 941 cfm (65 lbs/min.). Justin had this mated to a machined 093 exhaust housing which is .82 AR. I asked Justin Wheeler (he was working for ATS at the time) which A3000 I should buy that would bolt up to the Banks up pipe. He told me to skip the A3000. The S360 is supposed to have a 60/84 compressor but it actually measures 59mm (i.e., its the same wheel as the A3000), but the turbine wheel is 76/68 (vs. the S200 series 74/65 turbine wheel used on the A3000). So it actually has a better hot side for us than the A3000. Justin (Anderson) told me that I should expect low to mid 30's for boost with the 110cc pump, and here is what he said about the turbo I bought compared to the box stock BW 177272 (S360 .91 T4):

I do still have it, and I am thinking of selling it since I upsized. The sickening part is I paid $1250 for this turbo before R&D became a dealer. I know the new turbos are even better, so I am not going to be able to get my money back out of it. I sent the turbine housing to R&D to have it ceramic coated, and I was going to post it up on the FB group for $800 obo. Part of me wants to just hold on to it for a future IDI project, but that is crazy talk since I am already overwhelmed by the one I am working on. I am not trying to sell you on it but if you think you may be interested let me know and I will hold off on posting it for sale. I am in no particular hurry to get rid of it. I have even thought about trying both turbos on my engine and comparing the results but then the S360 would be a used unit and worth even less. Talk about frivolous...

 

It definitely looks interesting; I'll be in touch. It looks like it would be an easier install, that's for sure -- what with the T3 exhaust port(no adapter needed).

So... a couple of questions.
First, the turbo you are talking about is the not-R&D-orange one, right? It looks smaller.

Second, can I get dimensions for it(for pipe sizing etc):
1. Exhaust V-band size
2. Compressor intake diameter
3. Compressor output diameter.
4. Total height from exhaust T3 flange to top of turbo(with t3 flange flat on ground)

Third:
What's with the markings on the turbo? There are a number of colored markings on both turbos, what do they mean?


Thanks for all your help!

 

Yes, the smaller plain silver turbo is the S360. I will take measurements tomorrow. The only one I know for sure is the turbine outlet is a 3" V band. I have no idea what the paint markings are on the wheels. I am guessing it is something used to mark it while balancing it but that is just a guess. There are colors and inked markings on both wheels of both turbos. I was curious about this also but keep forgetting to ask Justin what they are.

 

Rob, Im certain the Sidewinder Turbo is hurting you... Thats also said, your torque was peaking near HP, so that run something was was off. HP is peaking right where it needs to, but I think pulling the fuel down hurt your peak numbers a bit.

 

Robb, I wonder what it would do if u would set the waste gate to maybe 15 psi? I just wonder if the exhaust flow is restricted by the turbo with wastegate wired shut. Maybe stupid but I think Justin prooved on the 93ATS wiring shut the wastegate hurts it more than setting it higher.