Just pulled the IDI out of storage for the winter and its low on coolant. I've always ran green coolant mixed 50/50. I don't have any with me to fill the radiator, but have "Global 50/50" John deere brand coolant handy. Will this harm the engine or cooling system if I filled the radiator with it?Thanks

 

Personally, I can't comment affirmatively on that question without reviewing a lot of information from previous discussions relating to Extended Life Coolants in these IDI engines/cooling systems. The ELCs use different chemical compounds for cooling system and anti-cavitation protection. They appear to be wonderful with state of the art performance but I have not yet seen a single recommendation by any manufacturer that states that they are appropriate or approved for these older IDI engines and cooling systems. They always seem to specifically state use for "NEWER diesel engines". Some people are using them. To be safe, I chose to use PEAK SCA Pre-charged after a complete flush. Next time I might try ELC.

If you are just adding some Global to the old coolant already in the system, then the question is "backwards compatibility" IF I remember correctly, the PEAK website information states that it is backwards compatible and can be added to the SCA coolant but you need to confirm that.

Do you have a copper/brass radiator or an aluminum radiator? PH value of the coolant can make a difference.

Finally, I highly recommend that you remove the plastic coolant recovery reservoir and inspect it for a leak (usually a crack) on the bottom. That may be why your coolant is low.

It is HDPE plastic (High Density Poly-Ethylene) which is heat weldable.

You can heat weld a patch using a simple butane torch and a piece of HDPE plastic cut from any HDPE container or jug that you have lying around - HDPE is used in so many different plastic bottles and jugs you wont have any problem finding a suitable patch to weld over the crack. Automotive product containers like coolant jugs and radiator flush bottles are HDPE as well as 1 gallon water jugs- but that material is quite thin. Many otgher containers, just look at the recycle triangle stamp on the container and below it it tells what kind of plastic it is. Look for "HDPE" it's everywhere.

There are no glues or adhesives that can provide a durable repair to HDPE. Heat welding is the best repair. NORMALLY hot air guns are used in industrial applications to weld plastics but for this small repair a small butane torch or 'plumbers soldering torch' will work fine.

I just replaced my coolant recovery tank and I put some thin strips of rubber foam under it- between the tank and fender well, and under the hold down bracket so it would stay securely in place and not move around.

Hope that helps.

 

I'm running Zerex HD ELC coolant in mine(it's purple, specifically for diesels); I don't see any reason /not/ to use it, despite it not being "recommended".

 

I know what you mean, we've discussed this before.

First, what you see and what I see compared to what a scientist or chemical engineer who formulates ELC coolants sees is probably very different. Unless stated specifically we can only "assume" that it is OK
I would love to use an ELC!

But, UNTIL one of those scientists or chemical engineers states that the ELC (which uses much different compounds for protection) is in fact a good replacement for the older SCA coolants then I am going to wait.
I will NOT trust a comment from a SALES person who says they are OK to use. It has to be from someone in the chemical engineering department.

A simple way might be to contact one of the engineers who formulate the coolants and ask them specifically. they are the only ones competent to make the statement.

IT MIGHT BE, that these IDI systems are so old and the market is so relatively small that they simply did not include them in their advertizing- I tend to doubt that but it is possible.

My doubt is due to the fact that coolant manufacturers have had a number of problems in the past and have been sued for coolants that caused damage to engines and cooling systems. Thus, they are going to be extremely careful about the claims they make in advertising and recommendations.

Also there was an issue with some ELCs in Power Stroke engines built circa 1999 - and presumably earlier that seems to have been related to cracking of injector cups. I don't know the exact details but it was mentioned in a long coolant topic in a Power Stroke forum

In view of that, it could be one reason why they say "for Newer diesel Engines" and one ELC Mfr. implied 2006 and newer.

Coolants are actually a very technical subject. I just hope that someone competent at the manufacturers "technical" level will answer this question for us.

When I've reviewed the technical presentations of ELCs, such as at PEAK website for "Global" ELC, it's a very very impressive presentation and I too would think, "I don't see why not and it would seem BETTER than SCA coolant" But that is only a presumption.

One of these days I'll send a well directed email to an engineer at PEAK to get a definitive answer.

 

Honestly, aside from the cavitation issue, we could be using water in our engines. As long as it doesn't destroy the (very few) seals, it's got a pretty low bar to cross.

And yes, we can argue this all day long back and forth. I'm using it because I don't want to mess with SCAs, and I figure the risk is pretty low. Unlike a Powerstroke, we don't have any close-tolerance brass bits, or tons of O-rings involved. There's very little that /can/ go wrong with our engines, but if mine has a problem I will be letting everyone here know.

Until that time, I consider it safe to use.

 

I am very technically minded, I've been a technical services rep for a manufacturer of construction materials and construction systems and I have had to deal with similar situations and liabilities in products and their specific applications and construction details. We had to warranty these systems for 20 years and I also did warranty inspections of the completed jobs before we could issue the warranties.

Later on as consultant and a commercial construction contractor I was called upon to inspect and analyse 3 construction failures as an 'expert' Court witness. 2 were damages from severe storms (one included some contractor errors) and one was simply "contractor error." All of the cases were settle out of court and my reports contributed to that.

The fact that we do not have a specific statement yet from these ELC manufacturers that the ELCs are perfectly adequate for these older idi engines/cooling systems raises a very big question: Why do we not have such a statement?

FURTHER, if the Global ELC is perfectly appropriate for the IDI engine/cooling systems, then WHY are they still making SCA Precharged instead of simply recommending Global ELC across the board? Only two possible answers to that question: 1: They can sell more coolant over-all by continuing to maintain an SCA precharged coolant so people wih the older IDIs will buy this one. 2) The ELC Global is NOT suitable for these older engines so they maintain the SCA Pre-charged.

I tend to think that number one is probably the reason = they can maintain more market share by maintaining an SCA pre-charged coolant.

Maybe the ELCs are perfectly OK to use. I just don't know that yet.

Why it matters to me: Probably because I am too technical minded but also I want to completely restore this truck and maybe 100 years from now it will be an excellent running and good looking classic truck in someone's collection. To achieve that I think every little technical detail matters.

Off topic but last night I was thinking that someday in the not too distant future we will have simple anti-pollution devices for these trucks

 

I TEND TO AGREE WITH YOU! I really do! But I am not qualified to affirmatively make that statement, that is really my point from the first sentence of my first reply.

I WILL, when I get the convenience, send a directed letter to a few ELC manufacturers as I mentioned ealier.

 

We really don't have to argue about ELCs because someone somewhere has the simple and correct answer to the question - IF there is a simple answer.

I want to use ELCs for the same reason you do MacRobb. When I install a coolant filter this year or early next year I will probably make the switch to ELC. I'll probably have the answer I seek by then.

The construction materials/systems story might have seemed unrelated but it really is very similar to Coolant manufacturers. So, I can see the possibilities of what is probably going on behind the scenes at the ELC manufacturers. It could be that these trucks are too old and too few in number to fully test with ELCs and therefore they don't want to make a 'committed statement" relating to these engine/cooling systems. They also have to consider their very long warranties.

So, the best I can expect from a coolant engineer or specialist is a well educated, well informed and honest opinion. THAT would be enough for me to support recommending ELCs and eventually I expect that I will get that.

I've also intended to write to Navistar about it.

I am not trying to argue. I sincerely HOPE that you are right and there is a very good chance that you may be right! I am only saying that with my technical background I can't make such a statement without knowing what a competent coolants engineer (chemical engineer) has to say about it.

 

Honestly you can be using just water, we do it on hundreds of systems. Glycol is nothing special, in fact its a worse heat transfer fluid. You lose 10 to 15% heat transfer efficiency at around 190f and 50% concentration. For cooling at 50% you lose 30 to 40%. Glycol is harder to pump, I've yet to see any data supporting it lubricating anything. The boiling point of 50 glycol is only about 10 or 20 degrees above water at the 28psi in the system.

Fleet charge, has a ph of 10.0 alaklinity of around 2200ppm, no moly, I doubt any tolyltriazole, around 2000ppm . 10.0 is too high for aluminum but it's the most accepts of generic elc over found

Fleet pride primatech had ph of 11.0, way too high for aluminum and questions for copper with no azole, no moly, 2000ppm of nitrite and around 2400ppm alkalinty.

Napa elc ph of 11.0 same as primatech no moly 2000ppm nitrite 2400ppm alkalinity

The green stuff has a oh of around 9.0, and as long as it's phosphate free adding the motorcraft additive which is both molybdenum and sodium nitrite and would be ideal. Also some azole wood be good if it's in there.

If it were me I'd fill engine with just plain green coolant 50/50. You dont want 100% as 4000ppm nitrite can cause damage. Cavitation /oxygen pitting isn't a risk without engine heat. I'd be more concerned about the aluminum oil cooler with the copper tubing in such close proximity and no flow with a high ph environment.

Sorry I'm calling sca prechaged elc, I thought it was all the same. If anyone wants to send me samples of coolant I'll gladly test them and let you know how good it is for the components in your system

 

I found the following in the FAQ of Applied Chemical Specialties, who research and develop coolant additives for race cars, very expensive classic cars and some unnamed international manufacturers (OEM).

I have no doubt about their technical expertise and qualifications, however I don't consider this to be a final judgement. It should be taken in contest with the website which is a site for one of their coolant additive products, which by the way, appears to be an excellent product- test data included. This is another valuable piece of information in our quest to find the right solutions. I ALSO highly recommend reading the entire FAQ (URL Below) because there is much more here that can be learned about coolants and additives. It gets very interesting after the simple product related questions at the beginning so keep going past those:

Q. Should I convert my cars cooling system to Extended Life antifreeze?

A. No. The carboxylates in orange-colored Extended Life antifreeze require 3,000 miles of driving before they passivate, or protect, the metal surfaces in a cooling system. Comparatively, silicates in conventional green-colored antifreeze passivate almost immediately. Passivation involves the electrochemical formation of a protective surface film that bonds to the metal, preventing corrosion. The mechanism of passivation is reliant upon flow and heat. Obviously these two conditions are absent when an engine is not run for extended periods of times, as is frequently the case with antique/collector cars and race cars.

Through research, Applied Chemical Specialties has observed that passivation is a dynamic process, in which surfaces films continually slough off and replace themselves from residual inhibitor contained within the surrounding coolant solution. Therefore, if one begins with metal surfaces that were originally passivated with silicates from traditional antifreeze, and then switches to the carboxlate-containing antifreeze, an interesting thing occurs. As the existing silicate film sloughs off, there is no replacement silicate present in the surrounding coolant to re-passivate. And because there will be little, if any, exposed metal to which the carboxylates can electrochemically bond, the mechanism of carboxylate passivation remains incomplete. The technical term used to describe this breakdown is bridging. As time passes, silicate passivation deteriorates, and carboxylate passivation remains incomplete. The net effect is a metal surface that progressively loses corrosion protection. Over time, this leads to damage and component failure.

Q. What have antifreeze manufacturers done to address this issue of bridging?

A. They have warned dealerships and consumers, via various Technical Service Bulletins, not to mix antifreeze types, especially when topping off a system.

SOURCE: No-Rosion Products Technical Questions and Answers

 

Thanks for the comments Shawn. Appears that you have some technical training to be interested in exploring this topic as much as you have. Automotive Tech training? I just have a few comments to what you posted:

Except for rust inhibitors! Back in the old days (for me that was in the 1960's) I've seen rusty water gush out of the radiators of over heated engines that were running mostly water or all water in the cooling systems. Considerable rust in pans after draining. I would say, "too much rust and not a good idea ." That FAQ had some good information on water as a coolant.

The bigger advantage for ethylene or propylene glycol is lowering the freezing point. Another reason for not using straight water. If you live in a climate where temperatures get below freezing point then you'll easily understand why.

As far as being a lubricant (??) It seems "greasy" to the touch and I would not be surprised if it lubricates the water pump to some degree. Water would be turning to steam and not lubricating anything in that state, as well as causing cavitation in the water pump which can happen anyway if there is too much air in the cooling system and that can destroy the pump impeller.


I'm understanding more about why coolants are tested for pH. It seems that a pH of 10 or slightly higher is a good target range, maybe higher. pH of 9 ("Green Stuff" ) I think is too low but after adding the Motorcraft additives pH is probably over 10. pH 9 is too low BECAUSE as the glycol breaks down the by-products are acidic and lower the pH. When pH gets down to 8 and below, THEN there is also a problem of corrosion.

Source url is further below.

Fleet Charge SCA Precharged lists in their website documents typical pH value of 10.4

I'm glad you mentioned the Oil Cooler!! I forgot about that component!
Read the answers in that FAQ about electrolysis and STRAY CURRENTS! THAT IS SCARY!

Remembering topics about oil cooler failures I tend to believe that some of those failures were caused by stray currents from a stupid shorted wire! That FAQ explained a way to test for that electrolysis and stray current and I'm going to do that soon! I do not want to deal with an oil cooler that leaks!

FURTHERMORE, when glycol based coolants get into the oil, that is very bad!!!

Here is a partial quote about that!:

There is more. Just go to that page and read it. I found it while I was searching if glycol is in fact a lubricant or not based on your statement. Here is the link:

Glycol In Lubricating Oil - Detection, Analysis and Removal


Yeah, the whole 'coolants and additives' realm is far more technical and complicated than I had ever imagined. I was pushed into learning more about coolants than I ever wanted to know and I still have more to learn. Basically, all because I too wanted to use the new ELCs (Extended Life Coolants).

I still don't have enough information to make a recommendation to anyone else. In the type of 'professional world' which I worked in you err on the side of caution and safety, and never make a recommendation that exceeds the limits of your knowledge of the facts because there can be huge liabilities. Like if I said, "This product will work very well in your shipping industry.." and then after 1 year 70 cargo ships have blown up, caught on fire and sank out in the middle of the ocean somewhere.

All of that aside, I personally think that the oil cooler is a very important issue to resolve here. I do NOT know what the newer diesel engines use for an oil cooler, lets say after the year 2,000. I'll have to go look that up now.

 

Quick answer: I had been assuming that the John Deere brand coolant you called "Global" is an ELC probably made by the same company that makes PEAK Final Charge Global. HOWEVER - I can't find in a quick search a John Deer coolant that is labeled "Global." nor can a find any John Deere coolant that is an ELC. So, maybe J. Deere does not have or recommend an ELC. since there are so many older and longer lasting JD tractors.

I did find this:

And further down he says:

ALSO, If you use test strips to evaluate your coolants you should not mix coolants or you will not get accurate results:
https://www.deere.com/en_US/campaign...lant-tips.page

I apologize for confusing your coolant with Extended Life Coolants which created more of an issue here than was required to answer your question.

 

Water with the proper corrosion inhibitors. There is nothung special about the impeller or seal on the water pumps. Glycol feels greasy, yes, but feel some 50% sodium hydroxide it will too, but I've never seen any spec sheet for a warranty on glycol systems I've filled that require a specific percentage of glycol for the purpose or lubricant. It's on for freeze protection.

Yes freeze protection is the only reason for it. It's also easier to tell a customer to add 50% glycol because they know at that concentration their corrosion inhibitor blend is correct. If you have a customer adding water no one is sure how much exists unless they test so they could easily overdose and cause damaged to their head gaskets solder joins aluminu and copper.

The 2000ppm of alaklinity is what will protect your glycol from break down. It gives the glycol a buffering capacity. You can have a glycol at a ph of 8.3 with 4000ppm alkalinity using borate, thay will resist break down better than a glycol with a ph of 12.0 and only 800 ppm alkalinity using sodium hydroxide.

Azole is one of the more I mm ortsnt inhibitors to add to a system as any copper ions thay are realeased be it from the block heater or oil cooler will find a less noble metals like aluminum or steel and plate out on them starting a galvanic reaction. Tolyltriazole readily reacts to form a bond around copper and prevents it from reacting wth anything else.

 

What about the cavitation protection?
7.3 motors(and most other diesel motors for that matter) have problems with cavitation and pinholing in blocks.
This is why Ford had to issue a statement saying that everyone needed SCAs in their coolant.

So just having glycol+water isn't good enough, or even water for that matter(and that's not taking into consideration temps well below freezing that I and others encounter during the winter).

The way I figure it, Ford recommended the ELC on the late model 7.3 PSD engines.
Those engines use the same oil cooler as ours, though I think the ends are different.
Those engines have the same materials we do - copper, aluminum and iron.

The early model 7.3s might have had issues with ELCs due to the injector cups/seals, but /we don't have anything like that/. So, risk is pretty low, me thinks.

 

Sodium nitrite and sodium molybdate are what protect steel cylinder sleeve from oxygen pitting. This is what the ford sca additive is. Glycol does nothing for corrosion protection itself in fact in its pure form is corrosive. No elc I have tested yet cotains mo6/mo4. They use sodium nitrite it's cheper. Nitrite offers no protection to copper or aluminum beyond oxygen scavenging. I suspect cat glycol and vw contain mylobydate and azole as well as nitrite. I'll actually buy some and start testing and whoever wants to send me samples I'll test too. I need 8 ounces