Electrical Upgrade... Welding Cable?
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Posting Guru
Joined: May 2013
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From: Oklahoma
Electrical Upgrade... Welding Cable?
I'm looking to upgrade the Grounds and alternator wire on the Excursion. I've been searching #1 or 1/0 cable and have several "Welding cable" options. Welders carry lots of "Amps" so I'm thinking the copper wire should be good to handle the power and ground on our trucks?
Welding Cable: https://weldingsupply.com/cgi-bin/ei...R:terms::PA#A2
I've identified some great compression fittings that will remove the need for a special crimp device for this large cable. (Compression Connectors - Battery Lugs & Terminals - Remy Battery)
What are the thoughts on using this flexible cable to upgrade my charging system?
Welding Cable: https://weldingsupply.com/cgi-bin/ei...R:terms::PA#A2
I've identified some great compression fittings that will remove the need for a special crimp device for this large cable. (Compression Connectors - Battery Lugs & Terminals - Remy Battery)
What are the thoughts on using this flexible cable to upgrade my charging system?
Hotshot
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 11,286
Likes: 263
From: North of Greenville
I see lots of folks replacing their battery cables with welding cable with no trouble. As long as you use the correct gauge for the amp load and length of cable run, shouldn;t be an issue.
I, too, have considered those Remy compression connectors. If I ever do it, I'll probably use them and then also go ahead and run some solder inside anyway just for extra good measure (and because I simply cannot resist a chance to over-engineer something)..
I, too, have considered those Remy compression connectors. If I ever do it, I'll probably use them and then also go ahead and run some solder inside anyway just for extra good measure (and because I simply cannot resist a chance to over-engineer something)..
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2008
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It's never a bad idea to improve something if it needs it. And, preventive maintenance will go a long way in vehicle life expectancy.
The Ground Wire can be one-size smaller than the feed wire in a circuit. FWIW, the Ground is more important in the circuit than the feed.
As for the compression connections, call me old, I still use solder for cable ends (both ends).
A torch (Butane, MAP, or Similar), solder, and a pair of vice grips or, a vice and your done in a couple minutes at 1/10th the cost of those fitting. And, they're air tight and permanent with no chance of corrosion inside the coupling if done right.
The Ground Wire can be one-size smaller than the feed wire in a circuit. FWIW, the Ground is more important in the circuit than the feed.
As for the compression connections, call me old, I still use solder for cable ends (both ends).
A torch (Butane, MAP, or Similar), solder, and a pair of vice grips or, a vice and your done in a couple minutes at 1/10th the cost of those fitting. And, they're air tight and permanent with no chance of corrosion inside the coupling if done right.
Posting Guru
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,072
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From: Dustbowl, NV
We use welding cable for all the military vehicles, light and heavy duty trucks and cars that we build and service at work. The flexibility at cold temps and abrasion resistance is superb.
If you use a mastic (adhesive) lined heat shrink over the end that you solder or crimp, no oil or moisture will get into the joint.
If you use a mastic (adhesive) lined heat shrink over the end that you solder or crimp, no oil or moisture will get into the joint.
Super Moderator
Joined: Dec 2011
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Speaking of "over engineering", ever wonder why OEMs do not use or rely on solder for high amperage, high current connections?
What metals have some of the lowest melting temperatures? The metals used in solder.
What is the byproduct of high current and high resistance? High Heat.
What melts solder? High heat.
What happens when solder melts? The connection loosens, then cools, creating a cold gapped joint with higher resistance, which increases the heat, which melts the solder further, loosens and separates the joint as the expansion of materials at elevated temperatures makes them pull apart, and so the cycle continues.
All of the high amperage connections I've ever observed in a non modified OEM vehicle have been positive mechanical connections that are not soldered. On the other hand, low current circuits are commonly soldered, and even recommended to be soldered by OEMs when repaired. But not high current, heavy amperage connections.
The other problem I have observed with people who do the "Big 3" by replacing their battery cables with ridiculously fat welding wire is that they don't realize that OEM wires have fusible links that are often hidden under wraps inside the convoluted wire loom that protects them from localized abrasion. Those fusible links are "engineered" to be of a smaller gauge so that they will melt and break the circuit if the current times the resistance generates enough heat to do so. The early breakage of this high amp circuit is what prevents total vehicle fires.
The problem with the master cylinder brake switch that gave rise to a massive recall of many years of Ford vehicles boiled down to not only a faulty membrane that tore within the switch... it also was the result of there being no fuse or fusible link in the constant hot circuit that fed the switch. The recall fixes all involved inline fuses, and eventually fusible links.
I would strongly, very strongly, suggest that if any battery replacement cable is considered, that the new cable be fitted with the same rated circuit interruption device as the OEM cable had, whether in the form of a fuse, or a fusible link. Bigger and fatter is not always better or necessary.
As for welding cable, a high strand cable that is flexible is ideal, but an automotive cable is more than just the strand count and conductor. It is also the jacketing. The SAE specifies SXL wire jacketing for under hood applications. The XL stands for Cross Linked. The cross linking of the polyethylene that comprises the wire insulation bring the rating from 105 degree Celsius to 125 degree Celsius. Engineers determined that extra 20 degrees C was a necessary safety measure in underhood environments.
For all these reasons, and more beyond the scope of my current time to type, it might be more useful to spend one's electrical system upgrade dollar on better batteries, like high quality AGMs, for better electrical performance.
What metals have some of the lowest melting temperatures? The metals used in solder.
What is the byproduct of high current and high resistance? High Heat.
What melts solder? High heat.
What happens when solder melts? The connection loosens, then cools, creating a cold gapped joint with higher resistance, which increases the heat, which melts the solder further, loosens and separates the joint as the expansion of materials at elevated temperatures makes them pull apart, and so the cycle continues.
All of the high amperage connections I've ever observed in a non modified OEM vehicle have been positive mechanical connections that are not soldered. On the other hand, low current circuits are commonly soldered, and even recommended to be soldered by OEMs when repaired. But not high current, heavy amperage connections.
The other problem I have observed with people who do the "Big 3" by replacing their battery cables with ridiculously fat welding wire is that they don't realize that OEM wires have fusible links that are often hidden under wraps inside the convoluted wire loom that protects them from localized abrasion. Those fusible links are "engineered" to be of a smaller gauge so that they will melt and break the circuit if the current times the resistance generates enough heat to do so. The early breakage of this high amp circuit is what prevents total vehicle fires.
The problem with the master cylinder brake switch that gave rise to a massive recall of many years of Ford vehicles boiled down to not only a faulty membrane that tore within the switch... it also was the result of there being no fuse or fusible link in the constant hot circuit that fed the switch. The recall fixes all involved inline fuses, and eventually fusible links.
I would strongly, very strongly, suggest that if any battery replacement cable is considered, that the new cable be fitted with the same rated circuit interruption device as the OEM cable had, whether in the form of a fuse, or a fusible link. Bigger and fatter is not always better or necessary.
As for welding cable, a high strand cable that is flexible is ideal, but an automotive cable is more than just the strand count and conductor. It is also the jacketing. The SAE specifies SXL wire jacketing for under hood applications. The XL stands for Cross Linked. The cross linking of the polyethylene that comprises the wire insulation bring the rating from 105 degree Celsius to 125 degree Celsius. Engineers determined that extra 20 degrees C was a necessary safety measure in underhood environments.
For all these reasons, and more beyond the scope of my current time to type, it might be more useful to spend one's electrical system upgrade dollar on better batteries, like high quality AGMs, for better electrical performance.
Tuned
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 379
Likes: 7
Speaking of "over engineering", ever wonder why OEMs do not use or rely on solder for high amperage, high current connections?
What metals have some of the lowest melting temperatures? The metals used in solder.
What is the byproduct of high current and high resistance? High Heat.
What melts solder? High heat.
What happens when solder melts? The connection loosens, then cools, creating a cold gapped joint with higher resistance, which increases the heat, which melts the solder further, loosens and separates the joint as the expansion of materials at elevated temperatures makes them pull apart, and so the cycle continues.
All of the high amperage connections I've ever observed in a non modified OEM vehicle have been positive mechanical connections that are not soldered. On the other hand, low current circuits are commonly soldered, and even recommended to be soldered by OEMs when repaired. But not high current, heavy amperage connections.
The other problem I have observed with people who do the "Big 3" by replacing their battery cables with ridiculously fat welding wire is that they don't realize that OEM wires have fusible links that are often hidden under wraps inside the convoluted wire loom that protects them from localized abrasion. Those fusible links are "engineered" to be of a smaller gauge so that they will melt and break the circuit if the current times the resistance generates enough heat to do so. The early breakage of this high amp circuit is what prevents total vehicle fires.
The problem with the master cylinder brake switch that gave rise to a massive recall of many years of Ford vehicles boiled down to not only a faulty membrane that tore within the switch... it also was the result of there being no fuse or fusible link in the constant hot circuit that fed the switch. The recall fixes all involved inline fuses, and eventually fusible links.
I would strongly, very strongly, suggest that if any battery replacement cable is considered, that the new cable be fitted with the same rated circuit interruption device as the OEM cable had, whether in the form of a fuse, or a fusible link. Bigger and fatter is not always better or necessary.
As for welding cable, a high strand cable that is flexible is ideal, but an automotive cable is more than just the strand count and conductor. It is also the jacketing. The SAE specifies SXL wire jacketing for under hood applications. The XL stands for Cross Linked. The cross linking of the polyethylene that comprises the wire insulation bring the rating from 105 degree Celsius to 125 degree Celsius. Engineers determined that extra 20 degrees C was a necessary safety measure in underhood environments.
For all these reasons, and more beyond the scope of my current time to type, it might be more useful to spend one's electrical system upgrade dollar on better batteries, like high quality AGMs, for better electrical performance.
What metals have some of the lowest melting temperatures? The metals used in solder.
What is the byproduct of high current and high resistance? High Heat.
What melts solder? High heat.
What happens when solder melts? The connection loosens, then cools, creating a cold gapped joint with higher resistance, which increases the heat, which melts the solder further, loosens and separates the joint as the expansion of materials at elevated temperatures makes them pull apart, and so the cycle continues.
All of the high amperage connections I've ever observed in a non modified OEM vehicle have been positive mechanical connections that are not soldered. On the other hand, low current circuits are commonly soldered, and even recommended to be soldered by OEMs when repaired. But not high current, heavy amperage connections.
The other problem I have observed with people who do the "Big 3" by replacing their battery cables with ridiculously fat welding wire is that they don't realize that OEM wires have fusible links that are often hidden under wraps inside the convoluted wire loom that protects them from localized abrasion. Those fusible links are "engineered" to be of a smaller gauge so that they will melt and break the circuit if the current times the resistance generates enough heat to do so. The early breakage of this high amp circuit is what prevents total vehicle fires.
The problem with the master cylinder brake switch that gave rise to a massive recall of many years of Ford vehicles boiled down to not only a faulty membrane that tore within the switch... it also was the result of there being no fuse or fusible link in the constant hot circuit that fed the switch. The recall fixes all involved inline fuses, and eventually fusible links.
I would strongly, very strongly, suggest that if any battery replacement cable is considered, that the new cable be fitted with the same rated circuit interruption device as the OEM cable had, whether in the form of a fuse, or a fusible link. Bigger and fatter is not always better or necessary.
As for welding cable, a high strand cable that is flexible is ideal, but an automotive cable is more than just the strand count and conductor. It is also the jacketing. The SAE specifies SXL wire jacketing for under hood applications. The XL stands for Cross Linked. The cross linking of the polyethylene that comprises the wire insulation bring the rating from 105 degree Celsius to 125 degree Celsius. Engineers determined that extra 20 degrees C was a necessary safety measure in underhood environments.
For all these reasons, and more beyond the scope of my current time to type, it might be more useful to spend one's electrical system upgrade dollar on better batteries, like high quality AGMs, for better electrical performance.
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 10
Speaking of "over engineering", ever wonder why OEMs do not use or rely on solder for high amperage, high current connections?
What metals have some of the lowest melting temperatures? The metals used in solder.
What is the byproduct of high current and high resistance? High Heat.
What melts solder? High heat.
What happens when solder melts? The connection loosens, then cools, creating a cold gapped joint with higher resistance, which increases the heat, which melts the solder further, loosens and separates the joint as the expansion of materials at elevated temperatures makes them pull apart, and so the cycle continues.
All of the high amperage connections I've ever observed in a non modified OEM vehicle have been positive mechanical connections that are not soldered. On the other hand, low current circuits are commonly soldered, and even recommended to be soldered by OEMs when repaired. But not high current, heavy amperage connections.
The other problem I have observed with people who do the "Big 3" by replacing their battery cables with ridiculously fat welding wire is that they don't realize that OEM wires have fusible links that are often hidden under wraps inside the convoluted wire loom that protects them from localized abrasion. Those fusible links are "engineered" to be of a smaller gauge so that they will melt and break the circuit if the current times the resistance generates enough heat to do so. The early breakage of this high amp circuit is what prevents total vehicle fires.
The problem with the master cylinder brake switch that gave rise to a massive recall of many years of Ford vehicles boiled down to not only a faulty membrane that tore within the switch... it also was the result of there being no fuse or fusible link in the constant hot circuit that fed the switch. The recall fixes all involved inline fuses, and eventually fusible links.
I would strongly, very strongly, suggest that if any battery replacement cable is considered, that the new cable be fitted with the same rated circuit interruption device as the OEM cable had, whether in the form of a fuse, or a fusible link. Bigger and fatter is not always better or necessary.
As for welding cable, a high strand cable that is flexible is ideal, but an automotive cable is more than just the strand count and conductor. It is also the jacketing. The SAE specifies SXL wire jacketing for under hood applications. The XL stands for Cross Linked. The cross linking of the polyethylene that comprises the wire insulation bring the rating from 105 degree Celsius to 125 degree Celsius. Engineers determined that extra 20 degrees C was a necessary safety measure in underhood environments.
For all these reasons, and more beyond the scope of my current time to type, it might be more useful to spend one's electrical system upgrade dollar on better batteries, like high quality AGMs, for better electrical performance.
What metals have some of the lowest melting temperatures? The metals used in solder.
What is the byproduct of high current and high resistance? High Heat.
What melts solder? High heat.
What happens when solder melts? The connection loosens, then cools, creating a cold gapped joint with higher resistance, which increases the heat, which melts the solder further, loosens and separates the joint as the expansion of materials at elevated temperatures makes them pull apart, and so the cycle continues.
All of the high amperage connections I've ever observed in a non modified OEM vehicle have been positive mechanical connections that are not soldered. On the other hand, low current circuits are commonly soldered, and even recommended to be soldered by OEMs when repaired. But not high current, heavy amperage connections.
The other problem I have observed with people who do the "Big 3" by replacing their battery cables with ridiculously fat welding wire is that they don't realize that OEM wires have fusible links that are often hidden under wraps inside the convoluted wire loom that protects them from localized abrasion. Those fusible links are "engineered" to be of a smaller gauge so that they will melt and break the circuit if the current times the resistance generates enough heat to do so. The early breakage of this high amp circuit is what prevents total vehicle fires.
The problem with the master cylinder brake switch that gave rise to a massive recall of many years of Ford vehicles boiled down to not only a faulty membrane that tore within the switch... it also was the result of there being no fuse or fusible link in the constant hot circuit that fed the switch. The recall fixes all involved inline fuses, and eventually fusible links.
I would strongly, very strongly, suggest that if any battery replacement cable is considered, that the new cable be fitted with the same rated circuit interruption device as the OEM cable had, whether in the form of a fuse, or a fusible link. Bigger and fatter is not always better or necessary.
As for welding cable, a high strand cable that is flexible is ideal, but an automotive cable is more than just the strand count and conductor. It is also the jacketing. The SAE specifies SXL wire jacketing for under hood applications. The XL stands for Cross Linked. The cross linking of the polyethylene that comprises the wire insulation bring the rating from 105 degree Celsius to 125 degree Celsius. Engineers determined that extra 20 degrees C was a necessary safety measure in underhood environments.
For all these reasons, and more beyond the scope of my current time to type, it might be more useful to spend one's electrical system upgrade dollar on better batteries, like high quality AGMs, for better electrical performance.
1. The size of the wire is in direct correlation of the applied use. AMP's do not create heat, Amps are energy created by ions, by voltage moving, which is referred to as current (Pressure).
The amount of current required to turn the motor and maintain its operation is achieved by the energy of the ions.
* *This is the most important when selecting the appropriate size (AWG) wire. The end use appliance and its specifications.
2. You are correct that insulation and "designed current interrupters" are required by ASM/ANSTI. Their requirement is based on safety. To reduce the possibility of damage or fire.
However, the recall of the Ford Brake Switch was not a manufacturing error, nor was it a design flaw. It was an application error. The wire and covering used was not adequate for its application. Regardless of whether the wire had voltage, or current, it wasn't adequate for the total AMP requirement of the circuit. Someone didn't add up all the "On" products.
2. Heat is generated when a connection is either insufficient (too small for its application), Loose, or incompatible dissimilar materials. For Solder to begin it's chemical softening process it must reach 500*F+. An aluminum connection begins it's process of degradation at about 325*F. The very reason solder is used as it has no memory. Where aluminum does, once heated to a point, it remains at that level of degradation and will not recover when cooled.
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,856
Likes: 52
From: Sacramento Delta, CA
There's a whole lot of wiring going on in the house-side of an rv-type E-Series. Especially with 250 Ah or more amp hour batteries. I used welding cable because it is finely stranded and I had read that electrical current flows along the surface of the wire (is this different between DC volts and AC volts, or between low vs high voltage, or between low frequency (Hz) vs high frequency?) so more strands means more surface and less resistance which means less voltage drop which DC current is especially subject to. There is a voltage drop calculator at Blue Sea Systems:
https://www.bluesea.com/resources/53...e_Sizing_Chart
Anyway, the real deal electrical gurus in the van world who come from the boating industry follow the ABYC "electrical code" (for 12v DC systems) and use:
"For wire, Ancor boat cable/wire (tinned, finely stranded copper, insulation rated to 105ºC). For crimps and lugs, FTZ"
And yes, don't you even try to solder it, I have a welding cable crimper and a hand sledge hammer for crimping. And yes there is available one inch or larger adhesive shrink tubing large enough to cover the terminal ends. Heat shrink tubing not only insulates, but provides a strain relief, preventing the cable or wire from bending at the terminal edge.
https://www.bluesea.com/resources/53...e_Sizing_Chart
Anyway, the real deal electrical gurus in the van world who come from the boating industry follow the ABYC "electrical code" (for 12v DC systems) and use:
"For wire, Ancor boat cable/wire (tinned, finely stranded copper, insulation rated to 105ºC). For crimps and lugs, FTZ"
And yes, don't you even try to solder it, I have a welding cable crimper and a hand sledge hammer for crimping. And yes there is available one inch or larger adhesive shrink tubing large enough to cover the terminal ends. Heat shrink tubing not only insulates, but provides a strain relief, preventing the cable or wire from bending at the terminal edge.
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Senior User
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 106
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From: Los Angeles, CA
Voltage in an electrical wire is like air pressure in an air hose. Electrical current (measured in amps) is like air volume (measured in cubic feet per minute, CFM).
Your air grinder, for example, requires 90psi of air pressure and 10CFM of air volume. So you need an air compressor that not only can produce the 90psi of pressure, but also maintain the 10CFM of air volume, at that pressure, if not your grinder will slow down and not work right.
Your starter trying to turn over a cold 7.3 can require 500 amps of current (for example), at 12 volts. If 500 amps of current aren’t available, or 12 volts aren’t maintained, then the starter won’t turn over the engine as fast or not at all.
In comparison, your taillights only need about 2 amps of current, at 12 volts.
An electrical current is flow of electric charge, this charge is carried by moving electrons in a wire (called free-electrons). Not ions, ions only come into play if we’re talking about high energy plasmas.
When a current passes through a conductor, it heats the conductor, this called Joule Heating, or resistive heating. That heating causes even less current to flow through the conductor. Don’t believe me – grab one of the battery cables while you crank the engine, crank it long enough and your hand will start to catch on fire! The cables and terminals will start to get hot really quick, the more current that passes through them! The thinner the cable, the hotter it gets, and the less current arrives at the starter to crank the engine.
Remy Battery has excellent quality products.
You can use welding cable, but it’s not necessary, you’re wasting your money. Instead use their battery cable, if you want to improve your starting system go up in wire gauge instead, from 2/0 to 3/0 or even to 4/0. This will help get more amps from your batteries to the starter, which will make your engine crank way faster, because the conductors will heat up less and more current will arrive at the starter. If you use a good AGM battery (read expensive), and good quality cables, your starter will crank amazingly fast!
For terminals I like their compression terminals, easy to use, you only need two wrenches, they give a tight positive connection and you can take them apart latter, if needed.
OEMs don’t solder battery cables because it’s more expensive, they have to handle chemicals like the flux and flux remover, it’s much easier for them to crimp the terminals. If you’re going to solder your terminals, make sure you know how to solder (most of us don’t), or you’ll end up with great looking cold joints that will have very high resistance (or you’ll destroy your connection with excess flux). Or you can always buy a $10,000 X-Ray machine to inspect your joints, and thus verify the solder integrity.
If you’re going to crimp the terminals, make sure you use the proper crimping tool for your terminals. A proper crimp tool will apply just the right force to the terminal, at just the right location. Too little crimp force, and you’ll have air gaps between the terminal and the cable strands. Too much force, and you’ll distort or destroy the terminals. A good quality battery terminal crimp tool should cost $200-300. If you use one of those cheap hammer ones, you have no clue how much force you applied to the joint, and therefore no clue how good the joint is.
Use a good quality shrink tubing at every terminal joint. The kind that has glue inside, it will melt with the heat, completely sealing the joint against water.
Lastly if you want to make your cables look totally professional looking, cover them in some high temperature slip wire loom. This will protect them from chaffing against any moving metal parts.
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Your air grinder, for example, requires 90psi of air pressure and 10CFM of air volume. So you need an air compressor that not only can produce the 90psi of pressure, but also maintain the 10CFM of air volume, at that pressure, if not your grinder will slow down and not work right.
Your starter trying to turn over a cold 7.3 can require 500 amps of current (for example), at 12 volts. If 500 amps of current aren’t available, or 12 volts aren’t maintained, then the starter won’t turn over the engine as fast or not at all.
In comparison, your taillights only need about 2 amps of current, at 12 volts.
An electrical current is flow of electric charge, this charge is carried by moving electrons in a wire (called free-electrons). Not ions, ions only come into play if we’re talking about high energy plasmas.
When a current passes through a conductor, it heats the conductor, this called Joule Heating, or resistive heating. That heating causes even less current to flow through the conductor. Don’t believe me – grab one of the battery cables while you crank the engine, crank it long enough and your hand will start to catch on fire! The cables and terminals will start to get hot really quick, the more current that passes through them! The thinner the cable, the hotter it gets, and the less current arrives at the starter to crank the engine.
Remy Battery has excellent quality products.
You can use welding cable, but it’s not necessary, you’re wasting your money. Instead use their battery cable, if you want to improve your starting system go up in wire gauge instead, from 2/0 to 3/0 or even to 4/0. This will help get more amps from your batteries to the starter, which will make your engine crank way faster, because the conductors will heat up less and more current will arrive at the starter. If you use a good AGM battery (read expensive), and good quality cables, your starter will crank amazingly fast!
For terminals I like their compression terminals, easy to use, you only need two wrenches, they give a tight positive connection and you can take them apart latter, if needed.
OEMs don’t solder battery cables because it’s more expensive, they have to handle chemicals like the flux and flux remover, it’s much easier for them to crimp the terminals. If you’re going to solder your terminals, make sure you know how to solder (most of us don’t), or you’ll end up with great looking cold joints that will have very high resistance (or you’ll destroy your connection with excess flux). Or you can always buy a $10,000 X-Ray machine to inspect your joints, and thus verify the solder integrity.
If you’re going to crimp the terminals, make sure you use the proper crimping tool for your terminals. A proper crimp tool will apply just the right force to the terminal, at just the right location. Too little crimp force, and you’ll have air gaps between the terminal and the cable strands. Too much force, and you’ll distort or destroy the terminals. A good quality battery terminal crimp tool should cost $200-300. If you use one of those cheap hammer ones, you have no clue how much force you applied to the joint, and therefore no clue how good the joint is.
Use a good quality shrink tubing at every terminal joint. The kind that has glue inside, it will melt with the heat, completely sealing the joint against water.
Lastly if you want to make your cables look totally professional looking, cover them in some high temperature slip wire loom. This will protect them from chaffing against any moving metal parts.
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,856
Likes: 52
From: Sacramento Delta, CA
Crimping is always the issue. A hand crimp tool for 4/0 welding cable for instance is $225. A hammer crimp tool is $13. Maybe ask your local welding supply company if they will do the crimps for you if you buy the welding cable and terminals/lugs from them and you cut the wire for your application. Make sure that you slide the adhesive lined shrink tube on the cable first!
I am not suggesting that you use 4/0 for your application, I used it from my 250 Ah house battery to my inverter and will likely use it when I move the now under the hood starting battery to the frame rail next to the second starting battery.
I am not suggesting that you use 4/0 for your application, I used it from my 250 Ah house battery to my inverter and will likely use it when I move the now under the hood starting battery to the frame rail next to the second starting battery.
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 10
Now, everyone here has made some contributory dialog which provides the OP with a process with which he can digest (hopefully without too much heart burn in the process).
(called free-electrons). Not ions, ions - Good catch! Humor me, I'm Old. I guess I got that from the diminishing frontal lobe area that decays in people my age. Forgive me.
One thing everyone forgot to mention is? OHMS Law (or Theory, which ever you prefer)..... the rudimentary physics of electricity and its movement through conductors.
The Air Compressor is a good example of electricity. As is a Water Hose (Laminar vs Turbulent) Flow.
Now, I'm not an expert. Although I have several pieces of paper which state I am. Those combined with $5 won't buy me a Cup of Coffee at McDonalds...... In retirement I may have to try that.
Amp-hours refers to the amount of time in hours a stored charge lasts at a given rate of discharge.
It's a far stretch to reference $10k x-ray machine. Silver Core Lead Solder is a more efficient conductor than Copper. It's not used because of cost. But, based on the cost of copper these days, I wouldn't be surprised if we're not going to, or are, seek alternatives in the industry. Just as Mercury is a much superior cooling liquid than water. But, we just can't fill radiators with Mercury.
The Starter itself is just as important in the ELECTRICAL SYSTEM as it is to the starting of the engine.... the starter is an alternator itself generating current when spinning. It only takes about 7VDC (net) to turn the starter at full speed because of that. There's a whole other formula for that.
The best statement is as stated, using the "OE design" is the best alternative to any alternative. It's been designed, tested, and proven.
I do enjoy these threads. They cause one to think. And, everyone's been thinking.
Posting Guru
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,072
Likes: 0
From: Dustbowl, NV
Blue Sea Systems also makes great circuit protection devices which should always be part of any upgrade scheme.
BLUE SEA SYSTEMS 285 Series, Thermal Circuit Breakers, Surface Mount | West Marine
BLUE SEA SYSTEMS 285 Series, Thermal Circuit Breakers, Surface Mount | West Marine
Thread Starter
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Posting Guru
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,199
Likes: 2
From: Oklahoma
Ok so I didn't realize my question would generate so much feedback, but I appreciate all of it. Thanks to you all, I have plenty to consider.
Originally, I had not planned on pulling the existing charging cabling out of the truck. Instead, I was going to just add extra grounding links between the batteries and the frame, starter and the passenger battery, and additional connection from alternator charging post to the drivers side battery.
Now I'm wondering if I shouldn't pull it all out and start over, or leave it alone and forget about it.
There are no problems, just looking to ensure it's efficiently working.
Originally, I had not planned on pulling the existing charging cabling out of the truck. Instead, I was going to just add extra grounding links between the batteries and the frame, starter and the passenger battery, and additional connection from alternator charging post to the drivers side battery.
Now I'm wondering if I shouldn't pull it all out and start over, or leave it alone and forget about it.
There are no problems, just looking to ensure it's efficiently working.
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 10
Ok so I didn't realize my question would generate so much feedback, but I appreciate all of it. Thanks to you all, I have plenty to consider.
Originally, I had not planned on pulling the existing charging cabling out of the truck. Instead, I was going to just add extra grounding links between the batteries and the frame, starter and the passenger battery, and additional connection from alternator charging post to the drivers side battery.
Now I'm wondering if I shouldn't pull it all out and start over, or leave it alone and forget about it.
There are no problems, just looking to ensure it's efficiently working.
Originally, I had not planned on pulling the existing charging cabling out of the truck. Instead, I was going to just add extra grounding links between the batteries and the frame, starter and the passenger battery, and additional connection from alternator charging post to the drivers side battery.
Now I'm wondering if I shouldn't pull it all out and start over, or leave it alone and forget about it.
There are no problems, just looking to ensure it's efficiently working.
It’s educational, everyone has added some points which are spot-on.
I especially like the depth that everyone has gone into. It caused them to research and think. I’ve already changed my instruction slides for students using some of their statements which I think they can relate to better than what I had written.
One caught a mistake I made in my haste, That's great. I even put that on a slide so my students know I can be wrong and they can "call me out" and not take everything I say as "Gold".
The problem with electricity is you can’t see it. Therefore, the Human element doesn’t want to wrap his / her arms around it. We have a difficult time relating to things we can’t see. And in the end, we’re all still friends.
Very useful.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,465
Likes: 17
From: Jacksonville, FL
Your information, well written and referenced. But, has some flaws.
1. The size of the wire is in direct correlation of the applied use. AMP's do not create heat, Amps are energy created by ions, by voltage moving, which is referred to as current (Pressure).
The amount of current required to turn the motor and maintain its operation is achieved by the energy of the ions.
* *This is the most important when selecting the appropriate size (AWG) wire. The end use appliance and its specifications.
1. The size of the wire is in direct correlation of the applied use. AMP's do not create heat, Amps are energy created by ions, by voltage moving, which is referred to as current (Pressure).
The amount of current required to turn the motor and maintain its operation is achieved by the energy of the ions.
* *This is the most important when selecting the appropriate size (AWG) wire. The end use appliance and its specifications.
In a DC electrical system (such as our trucks) there are 4 main electrical units we deal with, Volts (electromotive force which can be thought of as pressure), Amps which is the amount of current flow through the conductor (Or GPM/CFM in the water or air analogy), resistance (the force opposing current flow) and power (the amount of useful energy used).
Amps flowing through any form of resistance will cause heat, the higher the current flow the more heat that will be generated. This is fine if the system is designed to withstand and dissipate these heat loads without impacting the integrity of the system. It is when we go outside of these boundaries that problems start to rear their head. This could be caused by a number of things, pushing a system past its designed thresholds, system parts/components that are beginning to degrade (through old age/flaws within the materials used/corrosion/etc.), changes to the system that alter its designed parameters, etc.
The reasoning behind the larger wire is pretty simple. Again if we use the water analogy. If we have a small pipe (water hose for example) and a larger pipe (fire hose?) there is a lot less effort required to get a set flow of water in the larger pipe than the smaller.
If the water pressure remains the same, as it does in our electrical systems (12vDC) then the amount of water flow is directly dependent on the size of the pipe it is flowing through (or wire in our case). Using a larger pipe ensures there is more than the needed amount of water available.
We do a similar thing in the field when needed for certain applications, if our electrical distribution panel or branch circuit device is located a long distance away, we use a larger gauge wire to over come the voltage drop caused by the resistance inherent to the materials used to construct the conductor. just like we would need to run a larger hose over a long run to ensure we had ample pressure at the end of said hose.
The use of a welding cable is this application offers more flexibility in the conductor itself, due to its construction using a lot more finely stranded conductors as opposed to less, but larger strands as used in other conductor types. The amount of current flow in this cable is not really directly linked to the amount of strands of a given size cables (someone had mentioned the factoring of skin effect, where the current travels more, closer to the surface of the conductor, than through the whole conductor, this is only really a factor in AC electrical systems). One thing to consider with the conductor type used is the insulation rating of said conductor, this is the safe upper temperature range in which the conductor can carry a certain amperage without degrading the conductor or insulation. This heat rating is dependent on the type and construction of the insulation and its ability to dissipate the heat generated by the current flow.
I am not sure where the reference to Ions came from?? they are associated with plasma energy and a hell of a lot more voltage than we will ever see in these trucks!
EDIT: I guess the time it took me to write this in between meetings and phone calls a lot of people beat me to it! well darn!