Electrical Upgrade... Welding Cable?
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 10
I think your post has a few more flaws than the one you were correcting?
In a DC electrical system (such as our trucks) there are 4 main electrical units we deal with, Volts (electromotive force which can be thought of as pressure), Amps which is the amount of current flow through the conductor (Or GPM/CFM in the water or air analogy), resistance (the force opposing current flow) and power (the amount of useful energy used).
Amps flowing through any form of resistance will cause heat, the higher the current flow the more heat that will be generated. This is fine if the system is designed to withstand and dissipate these heat loads without impacting the integrity of the system. It is when we go outside of these boundaries that problems start to rear their head. This could be caused by a number of things, pushing a system past its designed thresholds, system parts/components that are beginning to degrade (through old age/flaws within the materials used/corrosion/etc.), changes to the system that alter its designed parameters, etc.
The reasoning behind the larger wire is pretty simple. Again if we use the water analogy. If we have a small pipe (water hose for example) and a larger pipe (fire hose?) there is a lot less effort required to get a set flow of water in the larger pipe than the smaller.
If the water pressure remains the same, as it does in our electrical systems (12vDC) then the amount of water flow is directly dependent on the size of the pipe it is flowing through (or wire in our case). Using a larger pipe ensures there is more than the needed amount of water available.
We do a similar thing in the field when needed for certain applications, if our electrical distribution panel or branch circuit device is located a long distance away, we use a larger gauge wire to over come the voltage drop caused by the resistance inherent to the materials used to construct the conductor. just like we would need to run a larger hose over a long run to ensure we had ample pressure at the end of said hose.
The use of a welding cable is this application offers more flexibility in the conductor itself, due to its construction using a lot more finely stranded conductors as opposed to less, but larger conductors as used in other conductor types. The amount of current flow in this cable is not really directly linked to the amount of conductors of a given size cables (someone had mentioned the factoring of skin effect, where the current travels more, closer to the surface of the conductor, than through the whole conductor, this is only really a factor in AC electrical systems). One thing to consider with the conductor type used is the insulation rating of said conductor, this is the safe upper temperature range in which the conductor can carry a certain amperage without degrading the conductor or insulation. This heat rating is dependent on the type and construction of the insulation and its ability to dissipate the heat generated by the current flow.
I am not sure where the reference to Ions came from?? they are associated with plasma energy and a hell of a lot more voltage than we will ever see in these trucks!
EDIT: I guess the time it took me to write this in between meetings and phone calls a lot of people beat me to it! well darn!
In a DC electrical system (such as our trucks) there are 4 main electrical units we deal with, Volts (electromotive force which can be thought of as pressure), Amps which is the amount of current flow through the conductor (Or GPM/CFM in the water or air analogy), resistance (the force opposing current flow) and power (the amount of useful energy used).
Amps flowing through any form of resistance will cause heat, the higher the current flow the more heat that will be generated. This is fine if the system is designed to withstand and dissipate these heat loads without impacting the integrity of the system. It is when we go outside of these boundaries that problems start to rear their head. This could be caused by a number of things, pushing a system past its designed thresholds, system parts/components that are beginning to degrade (through old age/flaws within the materials used/corrosion/etc.), changes to the system that alter its designed parameters, etc.
The reasoning behind the larger wire is pretty simple. Again if we use the water analogy. If we have a small pipe (water hose for example) and a larger pipe (fire hose?) there is a lot less effort required to get a set flow of water in the larger pipe than the smaller.
If the water pressure remains the same, as it does in our electrical systems (12vDC) then the amount of water flow is directly dependent on the size of the pipe it is flowing through (or wire in our case). Using a larger pipe ensures there is more than the needed amount of water available.
We do a similar thing in the field when needed for certain applications, if our electrical distribution panel or branch circuit device is located a long distance away, we use a larger gauge wire to over come the voltage drop caused by the resistance inherent to the materials used to construct the conductor. just like we would need to run a larger hose over a long run to ensure we had ample pressure at the end of said hose.
The use of a welding cable is this application offers more flexibility in the conductor itself, due to its construction using a lot more finely stranded conductors as opposed to less, but larger conductors as used in other conductor types. The amount of current flow in this cable is not really directly linked to the amount of conductors of a given size cables (someone had mentioned the factoring of skin effect, where the current travels more, closer to the surface of the conductor, than through the whole conductor, this is only really a factor in AC electrical systems). One thing to consider with the conductor type used is the insulation rating of said conductor, this is the safe upper temperature range in which the conductor can carry a certain amperage without degrading the conductor or insulation. This heat rating is dependent on the type and construction of the insulation and its ability to dissipate the heat generated by the current flow.
I am not sure where the reference to Ions came from?? they are associated with plasma energy and a hell of a lot more voltage than we will ever see in these trucks!
EDIT: I guess the time it took me to write this in between meetings and phone calls a lot of people beat me to it! well darn!
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 10
Haters hate.....
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,465
Likes: 17
From: Jacksonville, FL
I am far from a "hater"!
More Turbo
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 655
Likes: 18
From: Randolph County NC
In the spirit of over engineering, has anyone else run positive #8 positive cable from alternator output to the positive battery connection on the drivers side battery? Also I have run #8 ground from alternator mount bolt to negative drivers side battery terminal. The theory is drivers side battery is the last to receive charging and the first to fail because of it. I have been running this way for 2+ years with no negative effects.
Cargo Master
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,871
Likes: 767
From: SoCal/Wyoming
I had one of these on my truck for 10 years and didn't change a thing.
Portable / Mobile DC Welding Equipment Designed for Use in Remote Locations
Portable / Mobile DC Welding Equipment Designed for Use in Remote Locations
Posting Guru
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 10
I had one of these on my truck for 10 years and didn't change a thing.
Portable / Mobile DC Welding Equipment Designed for Use in Remote Locations
Portable / Mobile DC Welding Equipment Designed for Use in Remote Locations
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 5
Don't be afraid to solder ends on battery cable,or welding cable,its not hard at all, if you have a torch & rosin core solder,Even the less than perfect jobs our helpers perform rarely fail,Easy as put cable end in vice,trim insulation back on cable,slide both heat shrink pieces on & away from solder area,place cable in the hole,warm up cable end with torch while feeding solder until it fills,note only enough heat to melt solder needed,let cool,slide heat shrink down & shrink with heat gun.
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Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 17,988
Likes: 207
From: La La Land
Don't be afraid to solder ends on battery cable,or welding cable,its not hard at all, if you have a torch & rosin core solder,Even the less than perfect jobs our helpers perform rarely fail,Easy as put cable end in vice,trim insulation back on cable,slide both heat shrink pieces on & away from solder area,place cable in the hole,warm up cable end with torch while feeding solder until it fills,note only enough heat to melt solder needed,let cool,slide heat shrink down & shrink with heat gun.
The key to a good joint is adequate heat. You can't solder battery cables with a soldering gun.
And yes, I know how to solder. For a time in my past I held a NASA certificate.
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 17,988
Likes: 207
From: La La Land
Don't be afraid to solder ends on battery cable,or welding cable,its not hard at all, if you have a torch & rosin core solder,Even the less than perfect jobs our helpers perform rarely fail,Easy as put cable end in vice,trim insulation back on cable,slide both heat shrink pieces on & away from solder area,place cable in the hole,warm up cable end with torch while feeding solder until it fills,note only enough heat to melt solder needed,let cool,slide heat shrink down & shrink with heat gun.
Pop
Lead Driver
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,298
Likes: 24
From: Damon (South East Texas)
They do make solder pellets that fit various sized lugs. You simply insert the pellet in the lug/terminal, heat the lug until the solder melts, and insert the stripped cable. You can slide some heat shrink up on the cable before installing the end and have a nice professional looking assembly when you're done. 
Tuned
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
From: Western Caribbean.
Since I install large amp/ relatively low voltage batteries for solar systems and pumps I feel unusually able to add my .02c worth to this discussion. First off, Tom White obviously knows his electrical, so read what he said carefully. Second of all, we make up our own solar battery cables, typically using #2 welding cable with crimped 5/16 lugs. Yes, the good crimpers are expensive but for a reason and they are absolutely necessary. I have seen TWO battery fire/ meltdowns caused specifically by arcing from lugs and connectors that were improperly applied. Not saying you'll have that problem with the current your truck draws but it is not pretty, believe me and I fell out with another installer who argued his $20 'hammer it' crimps were not the cause of a major problem that cost his client well over $1,000 for us to repair. You should be able to find a welding supply company that will offer a service to properly crimp those connectors, PAY IT. I used to solder the connectors also but no longer bother and don't find it necessary. We crimp connectors for high volage transformers also and NEVER solder. Hope this helps,
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 17,988
Likes: 207
From: La La Land
As always, the proper tooling makes for a better job.
It's what one does, when one doesn't have them, that counts.
A bad solder job, depending only on the solder for the mechanical and electrical connection is worse than a vise-gripped crimp.
A bad crimp, depending only on it for the electrical and mechanical connection, is just as bad.
If you knew what you were doing, one could use a die grinder, a carbide burr, a bolt cutter, and some time (and thought) and have a first-rate crimp tool for the SPECIFIC CONNECTOR. Lacking that knowledge, however, you could have a disaster waiting to start a fire.
Personally, I prefer a quality crimp job, followed with a good solder job, followed by shrink sleeving (sometimes the self-potting kind, depending...). Kinda win-win, even if it's over-kill.
I don't have electrical problems of my own making, but that might come as a result of a career in avionics and aircraft engineering and maintenance. The really nice part, nowadays, is I don't really have weight as a consideration. I still ALWAYS factor in the safety, though.
Pop
It's what one does, when one doesn't have them, that counts.
A bad solder job, depending only on the solder for the mechanical and electrical connection is worse than a vise-gripped crimp.
A bad crimp, depending only on it for the electrical and mechanical connection, is just as bad.
If you knew what you were doing, one could use a die grinder, a carbide burr, a bolt cutter, and some time (and thought) and have a first-rate crimp tool for the SPECIFIC CONNECTOR. Lacking that knowledge, however, you could have a disaster waiting to start a fire.
Personally, I prefer a quality crimp job, followed with a good solder job, followed by shrink sleeving (sometimes the self-potting kind, depending...). Kinda win-win, even if it's over-kill.
I don't have electrical problems of my own making, but that might come as a result of a career in avionics and aircraft engineering and maintenance. The really nice part, nowadays, is I don't really have weight as a consideration. I still ALWAYS factor in the safety, though.
Pop
Senior User
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
From: San Diego
I just replaced my batteries and need new cables (or just the ends if enough room) and was thinking of building my own cables. What gauge wire is the stock cables? I like the compression ends that were linked in the tread by the OP.
Postmaster
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,951
Likes: 4
From: Gary,Indiana
I just reread this whole thread and I think it has some GREAT info here.
So thank you everyone for their input it really gives you a complete look at the subject at hand.
But my question is what size awg wire is the stock positive & negative battery leads ?
I just put new batteries in my truck today and I was not pleased with the health of the battery terminals. I am just replacing the terminals.
So my plan is to go with NOCO terminals I have had good luck with their products in the past. So I am not sure yet but I will use one of these.
*CC-3 Copper Crimpable Terminals TF20P
*TZ620 Lead-Free Military Grade Zinc Battery Terminal
But I leaning towards the CC-3 Copper Crimpable Terminals. What do you think?
http://www.nocousa.com/pdf/Noco-Cata...inals-Lugs.pdf
So thank you everyone for their input it really gives you a complete look at the subject at hand.
But my question is what size awg wire is the stock positive & negative battery leads ?
I just put new batteries in my truck today and I was not pleased with the health of the battery terminals. I am just replacing the terminals.
So my plan is to go with NOCO terminals I have had good luck with their products in the past. So I am not sure yet but I will use one of these.
*CC-3 Copper Crimpable Terminals TF20P
*TZ620 Lead-Free Military Grade Zinc Battery Terminal
But I leaning towards the CC-3 Copper Crimpable Terminals. What do you think?
http://www.nocousa.com/pdf/Noco-Cata...inals-Lugs.pdf