Thats good knowledge and all but the 6BT cummins is a much less complex engine with something like 40% fewer parts. Huge budget? Some basic tweaks to the p pump with the right choice in a turbo and I'm sorry, but that dinosaur IDI can't touch the cummins in power band, peak power, or fuel economy. Also, you can get an adapter to put virtually ANY transmission on the planet behind a cummins. Rebuilds on 6BT's are cheap as well. Ever laid a cummins crank and rods next to a power stroke crank and rods? Are you familiar with the compression ratio on an IDI and the issues it causes with the blocks? You are relying on previous owners maintaining the coolant correctly and periodically. For that reason alone I would advise against a IDI. Then there is the glow plugs, relays, and hydraulic injection system to deal with. Why send the OP down that rabbit trail? One wire to run the cummins and no relays and sensors. Yeah, a little more fab work to get the cummins in; but not much more than the IDI. You don't have to blow smoke to make huge power; its all in the tune. There is a reason people almost never do the idi/powerstroke swaps and the cummins is the choice.

BTW, that idi is an International Harvester; not a Ford motor by any means.

Another BTW, I own both. My current daily driver is a 97 power stroke and my build is a 4bt cummins. The power stroke I have now is the 4th I have owned. I will probably never get another power stroke. I am worn out with sensors and bad gas mileage.

 

^^^^^^^^^X10

 

f100, I agree with you. Not to nit pick, but the idi doesn't have hydraulic injectors the powerstroke does.
The cummins was offered in the f600 trucks, so its as much a ford motor as the international is I guess you could say



And to the gentleman asking about the dart 427, I know they make a Windsor block is that what you were asking about, because I would be all for that. An all aluminum 427 Windsor, sign me up

 

I'm going to nit pick this just a little, just for fun I guess.

"40% fewer parts" only if you're talking powerstroke, which you seem to confuse several times with the IDI. It might be fair to say 25% fewer parts, 2 less cylinders.

"Ever laid a cummins crank and rods next to a power stroke crank and rods?" Actually yes, along with parts from many other engines. And again IDI not PS, but very similar, however IDIT rods are a little stronger then PS rods. Anyway as I said the IDI has a "lighter reciprocating mass" and Cummins parts are stronger. But they also have to be, the direct injection is much harder on parts then the indirect injection thus the IDI can get by just as well with lighter parts.

"previous owners maintaining the coolant correctly" While cavitation is an issue IMO it's blown out of proportion, but this is true. However it's true of everything you buy used.

"Then there is the glow plugs, relays, and hydraulic injection system to deal with." Glow plugs yes but the 6BT has it's setup also, relays sure they both have relays, hydraulic injection system, not as I think you mean it. Sure ALL diesels have a hydraulic injection system, but I think you're referring to the powerstroke system not the IDI.

"One wire to run the cummins and no relays and sensors." This is as true for the IDI as it is for the 6BT.

"Yeah, a little more fab work to get the cummins in; but not much more than the IDI" Length is a real issue in a Cummins swap, IDK the ins and outs of getting one in a bump side, but I feel pretty confident saying the IDI would be much easier.

"You don't have to blow smoke to make huge power; its all in the tune." The DI of the Cummins is much more sensitive to injector issues and will tend to smoke more.

 

THIS !!!!


also you could look up this guy who builds fantastic FE engines

Survival FE Ford Parts

 

For the Cummins vs. IDI thing. All IDI's have glow plugs. Many (if not most) B series Cummins engines have no pre-heater system whatsoever. My little four banger will start at / a little below freezing with no aid of any sort - and I have the timing cranked WAY up.

If you want the timing control, get a rotary VE pump (like used on first gens). You can fine tune and adjust it to a much greater extent than the IDI's pump.

Would I be wrong to say that about every 100,000 miles the IDI needs new injectors and pump? The Bosch pumps on Cummins engines will run two, three, or four hundred thousand without batting an eye - a lot of times even more. The injectors will last 200,000 (the pop pressures do start to get a little weak).

The length isn't a problem. If you set the motor back so you can still get the valve cover off, a stock second gen fan on a first gen intercooled hub will clear a supercooling radiator.

To get 350 HP from a first gen engine, all you need is injectors, a different turbo, a 12mm end wrench and a straight screw driver.

As you might be able to tell, I am a fan of the VE pump. The P pump is good, but if you don't need over 400 HP, the VE starts better and tends to get better mileage.

As has been stated, a Cummins is just as much Ford as an IDI is.



I am only referring to 8 and 12 valves in the above info.

That will take some serious funds to just find a Cummings engine.

 

The only pre-heater used on a B series Cummins, is an intake air heater. It does aid in getting them started in temps below freezing, but isn't a requirement, like the glow plugs on an IDI. IDI's need the glow plugs in order to start in 60F weather.......
A 6BT is only a couple inches longer than a 240/300 I6 that Ford stuffed into many of these engine bays. Best of all, the engine mounts sit in the same location as the I6 gas engines found in ford trucks, 65-96. I know this, as I am part way thru swapping a 300, for a 6BT. If a 300 fits, it's not that hard to make a 6BT fit.

The IDI has clearance issues with the brake booster/master cyl in 79 & older trucks. Most state that a body lift is needed to resolve this. It's not like the brakes are important, or anything......

As for durability, a well maintained IDI may go 500K. I know of many 12V and 24V Cummins engines with well over a million miles on them. Probably just as many of the 4BT versions with that kind of miles under their belt.......

 

Once I get my diesel crewcab on the road I'm doing one of two things...

I drive a 99 chevy 4x4 with a 4.8L/5speed, if I find another old ford 4x4 that needs an engine it's getting gutted for the motor tranny case.

If I find an old ford 4x4 with a good engine it's getting an EFI thrown on it of some sort. Fuel is just too expensive to rely on a carb anymore IMO, as good as they were in their day, even a 10% efficiency gain on new EFI vs slightly worn carb is money well spent I think.

There's a bunch of guys around here now that have done the diesel swap that don't drive them because their daily driver is an EFI gas job.

Gas is $1.20 a litre today, and diesel is $1.29, not happy about either, it's been more expensive. I don't drive my 08 F-350 diesel cause the chevy gets another 100km for the same amount of fuel.

 

One of the big things that I have problem understanding is why guys want to spend the kind of money that it will take to convert one of these ol boxes to a gas saver, that will never drive enough to recover the cost of the conversion.

I have 2 trucks with a bed on it a 66 F100 & a 06 F150 and a 3rd a 97 Taurus that gets 10 mpg more than the 06 and 12-15 more than the 66, and it's not a real sipper.

Keep your trucks, use them for work, have fun with them, but get something that is easy on high dollar gas for a daily driver.


John

 

Depends on how much you drive. I regularly get 10mpg when empty, so if I was to swap for an EFI and get a 10% increase as you say, then I would have to drive 60,000 miles to get the payback (this is based on the math knowing that a new fuel injection system is around $2,500 while a new carb is around $300, and for easy math assuming gas is $4 per gallon). But a really well tuned carb will get quite similar mileage as EFI, it just takes more maintenance to keep it tuned.

Now if it is truly a daily driver the EFI may be worth it, but for a truck I only drive a few thousand miles per year I'd rather spend the $2,200 difference on beer and tools and more gas to pour down my carb.

For the OP; my recommendation would depend on what you actually plan to do with the truck. If it is going to be your toy then I would keep the FE but look for a crank to stroke it to a 390. If it is actually going to be a daily driver I would either swap in a diesel or maybe a 351 or 460 EFI engine from the mid-90's. I think a mid-90's 300 EFI or a 5.0 coyote motor would be better suited for an F100 or F150.

 

It was suggested to me by someone when i mentioned the smallblock dart 427 idea to him. He said it would cost a lot less than the dart by way of resurrecting a powertrain from a junked corvette. I do share the trepidation
but the dart engines are very expensive and I would pay for the complete ford pedigree if I had the money... which I might not have...

 

The you're talking about their Ford billet block? Why would having an aluminum block be that important to you?

 

At this time, I'm tending towards keeping the 360, and the C6.

The engine will get an aftermarket EFI setup, and some kind of more modern ignition system. Still researching on that front.

The C6 will get a rebuild to include the lower ratio gears in first and second, and backed up by a Gear Vendor Overdrive unit. I think it has 3.90 something gears in the rear end now. Depending on how it behaves with the engine and trans mods I may change that.

The intent with the truck is to use it as a weekend warrior to tow the four wheelers into the mountains on weekends.

The body will stay mostly stock. I intend to take the fuel tank out of the cab and install it back of the axle between the frame rails. I have the in bed sheet metal that covered the hose for a sidesaddle auxiliary tank, and should be able to plumb the new tank so it looks like it belongs there. The truck is an ivory white now, and I plan to keep it that way, but add the cream yellow cab top paint. I always liked the way that color scheme worked. I have the dealer brochures, and DuPont paint chips. So it should be really close to stock.

I want to upgrade to disc brakes if I can find a suitable 73-up donor. I also want to add power steering. (Would the power steering from a dent side work?)

Interior, will get an upgraded radio system, but since we only have two radio stations, and I don't like either of them, I may just gut the stock AM radio, and convert it to a preamp I can feed my iPhone into via blue tooth. Still thinking on that one. Bucket seats and some kind of center console, are a probable. Again still thinking on that.

 

73-76 F100 360/C6 donor is what is required to provide power steering and disc brakes for your truck. Buy your donor, rebuild that engine and tranny to swap in, and keep your truck on the road for as long as possible.



John

 

I have done some of those mods to my truck. my truck needs parallel yours. I was fortunate to have a stock NP435. Axle swaps permitted me to lower my gear ratio. I run 33" MTs.

A web search seems to indicate not much MPG improvement from electronic ignition. However, I found this describing a EZ EFI upgrade indicating about 4 MPG improved gas mileage might be had for $2000 in parts:

Quick Install: EFI on Any Older Pickup - PickupTrucks.com News

very sloppy arithmetic seems to imply that one might recoup the efi investment in about 3 or 4 years at about 12k miles per year, coming out ahead after that.