This is more a note to the moderators, but an invite for input as well:

I looked through all the forum topics and there are several where the crickets hang out. I also spotted a crater that could be filled by a topic that has garnered much interest in the last two years - OBDII Scan Tools, Scan Gauges, and associated hardware/software. Say I do a search for AE or Torque - I get dragged all over the forum, with the Superduty topic having some key info I need, as well as some info lurking in the 6.0L and 5.4L gasser topics. We don't have Saabs, Subarus, and 'Stangs hangin' out on FTE, so the information collected in a dedicated OBDII topic would likely apply to most of us on some level. What say you?

 

I Think it's a great idea. I wouldn't mind seeing a list of the torque PIDS and what I should expect as a good reading if everything is running the way it should be. Like my negative boost pressure's, and torque converter slip.


Would this be a good place to add a list of all the powerstroke codes and a basic description of that they are?

 

Tugly, I agree, but I must say, you are partly responsible for the numerous threads, each titled with catchy alliterative names that draw us in.

 

Partly... there is a lot of interest pre-dating anything I've done. It looks like Torque Pro has really entered it's own for the Ford Enhanced within the last couple of years, and we're playing catch-up.

I have downloaded a number of Ford PIDs available in Torque, but many of the formulas are in error, or have 27 bracketed formulas that result in something like "divided by 2" when streamlined. I'm working on verifying and cleaning up all that I can... plus I'm pondering the problems with the P'us PIDs - like the 1100 ft/lbs of torque from the 1.5L gas engine... at idle... in Park.

 

This is awesome. If I had a go to graph on "normal" engine operations I may have been able to narrow down my power loss a year ago. Or a clue on how to take the numbers I gave you and make a graph like you did for comparison life would be a lot easier.
Thanks again tugly.

 

Good idea. I think it would help us all.

 

Yes, I was careful to say partly. And in the recent weeks, prominently. Which is not a bad thing.

This is one of the issues that concerned me about some aftermarket apps. I've often wondered how accurate they were. Just because some data is inaccurate doesn't mean all of it is, but then the question arises as to which of it is. And vice versa, just because some data is accurate doesn't mean all of it is.

This is one of the main reasons I went with the NGS. There is no doubt or question about what works or doesn't. Ford wrote the software, and called out the specs for the test instrument. I took it a step further and A/B tested with another new NGS, and also had the cards updated to the latest and last versions.

It might be interesting to compare PID data accuracy and damping between the Torque Pro and similar aftermarket devices, including AE. I'm looking into a lab grade port splitter for this purpose. This way, on a get together such as in mantown or the like, the reported data and damping rate can be compared simultaneously at the exact same moment under the same conditions on the same truck. What I'm looking into currently is the impact of the splitter on the quality of the signal distribution.

All the pretty dial faces aside, there is no point in instrumentation unless it accurately reflects what is actually happening, when it is happening. I'm sure this we all can agree on. Having a known good and verified baseline to compare some of these emerging options with would seem to be useful in gaining confidence in what is being reported.

 

That being said... I would never use Torque Pro to troubleshoot Stinky - I have AE for that purpose. The readings from Torque can be used to troubleshoot if nothing else is on the shelf, as was recently done with JOHN2001. Torque Pro has one thing going for it: Convenient monitoring/logging of critical PIDs on my daily drives far from home. With the baseline I've already built, I can review the data to compare at any time in the future. I can't really say price is a benefit... I "hardwared" up to the tune of $400 to load the $5 program.

So... of all the scan tool options available, it's best to look in your inventory as well as at your goals before taking the trigger guard off the Buck$Zooka: Windows laptop/netbook lying around? AE is very powerful and reasonably priced, but not convenient. Tablet or smart phone? Torque is very convenient for monitoring, but can't do critical testing. No hardware? NGS is the factory tool and they can sometimes be acquired for a reasonable price... sometimes not. It's powerful, but not so convenient. Infinity is a very powerful AND convenient alternative, plus it can be used as a programmer - but the price leaves you digging in the couch and under the car seats for any monetary help at all. I haven't used Scan Gauge or Aeroforce - that's for somebody else to make a case for/against.

 

I have not found the NGS to be inconvenient at all. Near instant boot up. One device, one plug, read data, done.

Ford wanted to ditch the NGS back when our trucks were built, but the dealership technician community protested the more cumbersome "Service Bay Technical Systems" and "World Diagnostics Systems" that Ford attempted to foist upon them. That is why the NGS lived on for 9 more years.

Ford had to have Hickok create a CAN VIM for cars that used the new CanBus. Then, as Ford migrated from WDS to IDS, Ford had to contract with NuDi to create an NGS+ cradle to fit Ford's first iteration of the VCM interface, because techs didn't like the set up time, space requirements, and cabling complexity of dragging lap tops into and out of the vehicles they were servicing on a flat rate basis. They wanted a portable hand held scanner with built in screen, like the NGS they were used to.

So the NGS+ cradle with the VCM installed enabled techs to "see" what the VCM was reporting without breaking out the Toughbook. All on the legacy NGS head unit screen.

For 2010 and beyond, the NGS is outdated. But the NGS was THE official scan tool for Ford, covering all Fords, Lincolns & Mercurys from 1981 through 2009, (and Mazdas from 1988 through 2001.) That's over a quarter of a century of vehicle coverage. With NGS Wave or now AES Wave software, it also graphs the PID recordings on a computer, if desired. Or it can direct print them, graphs and all, on a thermal receipt printer.

It is certainly not the only option out there, but when adding everything up for the alternatives, it is definitely cost competitive now. The was not the case a few short years ago, when the NGS cost $3,300.00 and not even in the realm of logical consideration for anyone other than working professionals, and even THEY questioned the expense, given some of the pro alternatives.

I'm not trying to pimp this thing, as I have nothing to gain from anyone else obtaining one. Of the extra two that I had, I've already sold the nice new one and sent back the non working used one that I obtained for comparison. But I do want to make sure that sufficient perspective about any so called "inconvenience" or convenience concerning the use of this tool is equally supplied from the point of view of someone who actually has this tool in hand and has experienced using it.

I do have experience using it, and it is lightening quick, convenient, and somewhat of a relief to have handy when following the diagnostics routines in the service manual.

It really should be part of the Scan Safari Scenario for shoppers seeking solutions.

(Try as I might, I'm just not as good at writing. But your talent does inspire one to step up the wordsmithing, at least a little.)

 

Thank you for the compliment on wordsmithing.

I'll venture away from that for a moment and opt for the thousand-word approach. When I use the word "convenience" for selecting NGS or Torque Pro for monitoring during the daily drive, this is what I'm picturing in my head:

 

i passed your recommendation up the line for review/discussion/consideration.

 

LOL! (on the side by side pics)

I'll grant you that little Nexus tablet is cute the way you have it arranged there. And the color screen makes for a purdy picture. But when I think of convenience, this is what I'm picturing in my head:

NGS:

1. EOT

2. VFDES



TORQUE APP:

1. Engine Oil Temp
EOT
PID: 221310
Unit: Deg. F
Max/Min: 300/0
Equation: ((((A*256)+B)/100)+40)*(9/5)+32

User Question: "I tried simply adding )/2 (with a leading parenthesis) to correct it, but that just tweaked it lower than it should be, was less than half.
Should I change it to be (A*128) instead of (A*256) ? Sorry if this is a stupid question, I am not yet wholly familiar with OBDII"

App Contributor Response: "Do this: for the units of the gauge type in Deg *F or just Deg. dont let torque scale the equation. Also put the equation right back where it is....its a bummer but it works."

App Contributor Addendum: "Also, the reasoning for the equations is that the ford's PCM reads and runs everything in hexadecimal. so we are taking a hex value and converting it into something that we can read. when you change A*128 from A*256 has really nothing to do with the final value. that just converts a 2 bit response into decimal. (notice most have that (a*256)+B) that just sets up the equation on pids that spit out 2 bits of info. some are simple like trans gear.... like a*.5....but its a 07E1 header in the PID line and it wiggs out sometimes....grrrrrr...."

Another User Question: "OK, so I'm trying to edit the PID that's pre- defined in the app for EOT... to the equation that's posted here but every time I hit the OK button it gives a little pop-up that says, "checking equation...." and it won't save it or activate???"

Member Response: "Is this on your phone? Try rebooting it. Or delete the app and download it again."

Another Member Response: "When I have had issues, I reboot the phone and it has cleared up. I have also pulled the bluetooth adapter out of the OBDII and tried again and it works. These are all simple things to try and take care of most problems associated with the communication between the two devices."

Another User Report: "I have the same problem with the EOT. It reads 32 F constantly. I had the dealer check to make sure the EOT sensor was working and they said it worked fine."

Additional Member Response: "Check your oil temp equation.Should read this way: ((((A*256)+B)/100)-40)*(9/5)+32 EOT. Make sure its exactly like this. ((((A*256)+B)/100)-40)*(9/5)+32 Unit type should be Deg.F mine works but had to change Deg. F"

Yet Another Question: "its seems pretty cool, but a couple things don't work for me. I am using the paid version with latest update and the ford pid add-on. #1 the EOT shows acive sensor but it reads ) degrees and doesn't change..."

(And so on and so forth it goes...)


2. Volume Fuel Desired
221411
VFD
0.0
50.0
x.1
GPH (gallons per hour)
((((((A*256)+B)*(100/16)/10)*8)*3600)*3785411.78)

App Contributor writes: "This one was fun!!!!!! Its converted into GPH instead of mm^3 per sec."

User Question: "the Volume Fuel Desired formula gives me a MASSIVE number, like 34 quintillion or something... what formula is working?"

App Contributor Response: "That formula is wrong me bad..."

Additional Response: "VFD and BP- I don't think they are important. I just ran across them and started playing. VFD doesn't seem really accurate for me. Before changing the multiply to divide, I was getting huge numbers, like 12 million. Now. at least it's reasonable- like 1.5 gal/hour at idle (but still seems high)"

Another User Response: "I believe the formula for VFD has an error in it. I reads: ((((((A*256)+B)*(100/16)/10)*8)*3600)*3785411.78) I believe the correct should be ...3600)/3785411.78) Look at the division if you don't see the bolding."




Hold up a sec. Seriously? "Look at the division"? I get cross eyed after counting the 5th parenthesis.

The above represents just a few pixels of the picture I saw when considering Torque App, and this snipet only covers a couple of PIDs. Rather than stumble through all that math, I'd rather confidently select PIDs on the NGS menu... which is more convenient for me than searching through forums for formulas (a strong argument for the mods to seriously consider Tugly's request), only to find the formulas fallacious. Too much figuring for me to consider it convenient. Also, rebooting phones, android devices, or windows computers... unplugging and replugging ELMS, re-pairing Bluetooth connections over again... not what I picture as convenient.

That all being said, people have different capacities (math) and tolerances. This guy's post summed up my tolerance level: "I thought this was going to be awesome for the price, but if it's a pain in the a## I will gladly spend the money to get a dedicated scanner/reader. " When I want to diagnose the drivetrain, I don't want to also have to stop and first diagnose the tools that diagnose the drivetrain.

 

That is an excellent point... Torque is a generic opportunity to get the PIDs we need on the 7.3L (as well as all other vehicles... like my Gen II P'us with 14 battery cells). The formulas will all be worked out eventually, and those with Torque will be able to download the whole Ford Enhanced "kit" for PIDs when the uber-geeks (like me) are done with the mathemagic.

NGS is ready right out of the box, and there is a very detailed manual on how to use it, along with what it all means - in the form of the Powertrain Control and Emissions Diagnostics manual (PC/ED). Torque is an open-source work in progress - like Wikipedia.

NGS also has the Ford OBDII connection - it's gunna work. Torque has multitudes of people trying to go cheap on a clone OBDII adaptor from China for the price of a Quarter-Caliber round.

Only after one has gone through the steps necessary to get the readings correct and has acquired proper hardware - that's when the word "convenient" sneaks into a Torque Pro conversation.

 

I just purchased a New Generation Star NGS XL also with the XL with CAN and the NGS Data Management Software.* Has not arrive yet, so you moderators still have some time to set up a top level dedicated scan tools forum or whatever you guys suggest!

This forum is really big. I didn't realize how big until I read this thread and decided to cruise around (Cruz/Walter**) and came across the Misc. section and found the Electrical and Wiring forum in there. Although, I saw some familiar faces and will likelly spend some significant time reading there, it does not seem to cover scan tools. And anyway, burying scan tools under Misc. would be a waste IMO.

A scan tools forum (not a tuning forum) as a top level forum with (eventually) stickies for each of the scan tool varieties would be helpful for years and FTE members to come.

Tugly and TJ, have you had any luck with the moderators on this?


* Does anyone know what Y2KW57 is up to? His last activity on the forum was 2-18-15 and his inbox is full. Hope he is alright.

** Cruz to cut the size of federal govt. and Walker to run what's left.

 

Tim, now that you have an NGS scan tool would you mind stopping by MN on your way home from work some day? I would be really interested in watching the PIDs that were called for in the 4x4 troubleshooting pages I received from whitemw . Since you really got into that issue with me and you're only half a country away I figured you would be the perfect person to ask.

On a more serious note though, where did you find your NGS and if you don't mind me asking, how many arms and legs did it cost you? I have found a few on EBay that looked like they came with everything but if I remember right the cheapest was about $800. That's a little more than I want spend considering I just want the extra access to PIDs that I can't find on AE.

Baatzy