LSD or are they lying?
Thread Starter
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9 ECHO 1
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 12,467
Likes: 58
From: Missouri
LSD or are they lying?
I was under the impression that LSD had been completely phased out by now (not to be confused with red diesel) and that ALL diesel produced must now meet ULSD standards.
However I was also under the impression that service stations (I no longer call them gas stations
) must display proper labeling of products.
So what do you think? LSD or old sticker?
However I was also under the impression that service stations (I no longer call them gas stations
) must display proper labeling of products.So what do you think? LSD or old sticker?
Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,096
Likes: 26
From: Mesa AZ
500 ppm sulfur fuel is not legal for on road use any longer. That could simply be an old decal that wasn't removed/covered. I think 500 ppm is still available for certain applications such as farm, marine, rail etc but I don't know how to get it. I say this because our quarterly apportion filings have us list how much fuel we use in gallons and it has a column for LSD and ULSD. 
Cargo Master
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,500
Likes: 14
From: South Carolina
Is a service station another term for a mechanics garage that also sells fuel?
Actually, i refer to them as filling stations to get fuel.
Actually, i refer to them as filling stations to get fuel.
Thread Starter
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9 ECHO 1
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 12,467
Likes: 58
From: Missouri
My source online states that all LSD, including rail and marine was phased out, that's why I brought this up, because some have reported they still be access. But I wonder if the LSD they get is true LSD or just, as this probably is, ULSD sold at an older pump.
Can't post a link because I'm at work in my ambulance on my phone but if you google relevant terms its one of the first links, something like "clean diesel.com" or the sorts....if someone wanted to look up what I was referencing.
Can't post a link because I'm at work in my ambulance on my phone but if you google relevant terms its one of the first links, something like "clean diesel.com" or the sorts....if someone wanted to look up what I was referencing.
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 18,849
Likes: 179
From: Puget Sound
"I'm gunna get fuel"
"I'm gunna fuel up at Fred Meyer"
I haven't seen the "running man" clock at the pump for a lot of years... and not many shops sell fuel. "Service" was modified long ago to "Self-Serv". Anybody who uses the expression "Service station" is expressing a proclivity to a silvering top - either full or retreating. I have neither... I shaved my graying cul-de-sac.
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Hotshot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 12,782
Likes: 2,142
From: N.GA Mountains
All of the refineries and tank farms (where fuel is distributed to 'fuel stations') I have worked at in the last 5 years have exclusively ULSD. These include CA, OR, WA, MT, NE, TX, LA, OK, KS, MO, IA, PA, NY, NJ, CT and MA. Fwiw, a couple of the tank farms in OR and WA also include biodiesel blends - IIRC, these markets (specifically Portland/Seattle) were required to sell 5% bio-d at the time.
I think railroads and shipyards are allowed to use LSD (up to 500ppm sulfur) up to 2014?? but after that they have to use ULSD as well. However, if they are still using it, they buy it from different refineries than I've worked at. The biggest problem lies in the pipelines. Sulfur is very pervasive and since pipelines share multiple products, there is no way to send LSD down a line and not 'contaminate' the next load of fuel. This is why the places I've worked switched over well before the required deadline in 2007.
I think railroads and shipyards are allowed to use LSD (up to 500ppm sulfur) up to 2014?? but after that they have to use ULSD as well. However, if they are still using it, they buy it from different refineries than I've worked at. The biggest problem lies in the pipelines. Sulfur is very pervasive and since pipelines share multiple products, there is no way to send LSD down a line and not 'contaminate' the next load of fuel. This is why the places I've worked switched over well before the required deadline in 2007.
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Posting Guru
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,037
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From: Florida
Jason, the way this EPA page reads it sounds like railroads and ships will continue to use LSD past 2014
Diesel Fuel | Fuels and Fuel Additives | US EPA
Diesel Fuel | Fuels and Fuel Additives | US EPA
Hotshot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 12,782
Likes: 2,142
From: N.GA Mountains
I suppose there may be refineries who produce this LSD just for them, but even 'off-road' fuel sold by all the places I've worked is ULSD - the ONLY difference is red dye to indicate it is not taxed for road use. The same applies to home heating oil, however it has different additives than what is used in 'vehicle' fuel. This stuff leaves the refineries on the same pipeline and is stored in the same tanks. The additives/dye are added at the 'truck rack' where the trucks who bring fuel to the stations, etc fill up. On that note, the 'raw gas' becomes 'Chevron, Shell, Phillips, etc' at the rack with the addition of each company's additive package as the truck is filled up.
Hotshot
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 11,286
Likes: 263
From: North of Greenville
The practicalities involved in producing the two different diesel fuels have driven production to generally ULSD only. However, from what I understand, the regs do allow off-road LSD use up until 2014. Generally speaking, though, I expect that most of the refineries have already completed the switch.
Again, I am just applying my manufacturing experience where multiple products have to be manufactured to different specifications, and issues like inventory space, raw material supply, process inefficiencies between switch-overs from one grade to the next, etc., all come into play. Shoot, I've even seen a number of companies continue making the more specification-restrictive product and simply relabel it as the "old" product just to avoid the complications that can happen from switching product grades. All the while, the customer thinks they're getting the "old" product while they are really getting the one with the tighter specifications.
Again, I am just applying my manufacturing experience where multiple products have to be manufactured to different specifications, and issues like inventory space, raw material supply, process inefficiencies between switch-overs from one grade to the next, etc., all come into play. Shoot, I've even seen a number of companies continue making the more specification-restrictive product and simply relabel it as the "old" product just to avoid the complications that can happen from switching product grades. All the while, the customer thinks they're getting the "old" product while they are really getting the one with the tighter specifications.
Hotshot
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 11,286
Likes: 263
From: North of Greenville
Rather than work from supposition, I did a little digging. Below is a link to two sites with the ULSD deadlines. Turns out that the locomotive and marine users will also be ULSD by 2014.
Locomotive, marine and non-road diesel fuel standards begin at later dates. - Clean Diesel Fuel Alliance
Diesel Fuel Sulfur Control Rules
Your "filling station" is probably not intentionally lying...
1) Perhaps they are lazy...
2) or cheap skinflints...
3) or just plain don't care about the labeling regulations...
4) or the "new" label was removed by a prankster...
5) or the "new" label just fell off...
6) or maybe they ARE lying in an attempt to fool suckers into preferring their station over someone else's!!
Locomotive, marine and non-road diesel fuel standards begin at later dates. - Clean Diesel Fuel Alliance
Diesel Fuel Sulfur Control Rules
Your "filling station" is probably not intentionally lying...
1) Perhaps they are lazy...
2) or cheap skinflints...
3) or just plain don't care about the labeling regulations...
4) or the "new" label was removed by a prankster...
5) or the "new" label just fell off...
6) or maybe they ARE lying in an attempt to fool suckers into preferring their station over someone else's!!