Ethanol Scam?
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Ethanol Scam?
Just returned from 2 months in New England ~4000 mile round trip in '98 4.6/auto, F150, XLT, SuperCab, 4X4 that has had every tank full logged. On trip North lowest fill up was at $316.9, left Ithaca, NY area & $4.089 was the lowest I found. Approaching 42,000 miles.
On return, happened to pull off for gas on I95 at a Shell in GA that sold Ethanol Free side by side w/the usual gas/alcohol cocktail. It was $.20 more per gal. - but 1st chance I'd had to try Ethanol Free in an extremely long time. Was suspicious enough to test if there was a difference by smell & detected one. So I decided to take the bait, anticipating a boost, detectible by the seat of my pants & in the MPG log.
Unfortunately there was no detectible change whatsoever. Somewhat surprised, was left w/the suspicion it might have been an "Ethanol Scam"?
Wish I'd been carrying a gas can. Have read the procedure how to determine ethanol content.
On return, happened to pull off for gas on I95 at a Shell in GA that sold Ethanol Free side by side w/the usual gas/alcohol cocktail. It was $.20 more per gal. - but 1st chance I'd had to try Ethanol Free in an extremely long time. Was suspicious enough to test if there was a difference by smell & detected one. So I decided to take the bait, anticipating a boost, detectible by the seat of my pants & in the MPG log.
Unfortunately there was no detectible change whatsoever. Somewhat surprised, was left w/the suspicion it might have been an "Ethanol Scam"?
Wish I'd been carrying a gas can. Have read the procedure how to determine ethanol content.
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I don't think the ethanol mix was really aimed at better mileage or performance, as much as reduced emissions. The by product of the 10% or so of ethanol, is just water. Can't beat that. Virtually nothing in a production vehicle is built for a higher ratio of ethanol to unleaded gas. Some of the Flex fuel engines are rated for E-85, which I believe is a little more ethanol, but I don't know anyone who gets any better mpg or power from that either. It's just less $$.
Dave
Dave
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Thought that "the ethanol mix was really aimed at" reducing imports of foreign oil, helping trade imbalance. It eliminated "emissions" of MTBE.
From all the bashing ethanol receives my expectation was that Alcohol Free gas would give noticeably "better mileage or performance". It seems to be an article of faith that ethanol in gas reduces MPG & performance. That belief is so prevalent, that when I found no difference, I suspected an "Ethanol Scam?"
E-85 is not "just a little more ethanol". The designation is for fuel w/up to 85% ethanol.
From all the bashing ethanol receives my expectation was that Alcohol Free gas would give noticeably "better mileage or performance". It seems to be an article of faith that ethanol in gas reduces MPG & performance. That belief is so prevalent, that when I found no difference, I suspected an "Ethanol Scam?"
I don't think the ethanol mix was really aimed at better mileage or performance, as much as reduced emissions.
Some of the Flex fuel engines are rated for E-85, which I believe is a little more ethanol, but I don't know anyone who gets any better mpg or power from that either.
Some of the Flex fuel engines are rated for E-85, which I believe is a little more ethanol, but I don't know anyone who gets any better mpg or power from that either.
Last edited by Club Wagon; Oct 2, 2012 at 08:55 PM. Reason: typo
Hotshot
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We have had 10-15% ethanol in the gas in Illinois for 20 years for most stations, and all stations for the past several years. I have found the ethanol cleans the injection system and displaces any water that forms. I have NEVER had to change an injector in a truck, or put HEAT in the tank in 20 years. About a million miles total on 2-3 trucks at a time running. I did a test several years ago and changed to straight gas for several tanks. I got 1 MPG better out of 19 so about 5%. The ethanol normally is only 2% cheaper so it does cost a little to use it compared to regular gas. I also am not convinced that we should be taking corn (food) and turning it into fuel. IM not sure that is economical.. THe E85 is 85% ethanol and must only be used in a truck that is specifically designed to burn that. The burn rate is much different between ethanol and gas.
Mountain Pass
Joined: May 2012
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From: NC
Almost ten years ago, after 9-11, I bought a flex fuel Ranger so I could run the E-85 which is 85% ethanol. What nobody told me was there was nowhere even a long distance drive to get that fuel. I really wanted to buy fuel that was coming from Americans and not the animals that hate us in the middle east, or southwest Asia as it is sometimes referred to as. Called around, and the only place that had it was in the corn belt Kansas! I was living in North Carolina. Oh well. It has also driven up food prices world wide. What a mess. Sorry for the rant.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: Near Cal. Avenue
The motor needs to be designed with higher compression to really benefit from the higher 105 octane of E85. If you have 10.5/11.5 compression you will notice greater pulling power in the slower burning E85's power band. It also is very noticeably nicer in very hot weather. A much cooler air to the piston due to evaporation. The trade off for higher performance is lower gas mileage. Last sunday it was $3.04 here. Not so bad when gas was $3.69. It runs the 75 MPH really nice.
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The original idea was not a major corn ethanol industry, but that's what it morphed into after agribusiness got a taste of Fed subsidies. Using waste organic material, especially cellulose, that cost money to dispose of, was the goal.
U.S. ethanol production had jumped to 13.5 billion gallons by 2010.
However, my point was that the common rumors of performance deficiences from gasohol appear to be greatly exaggerated. If Ethanol Free gas provided more power or better MPG my trial couldn't detect it.
However, my point was that the common rumors of performance deficiences from gasohol appear to be greatly exaggerated. If Ethanol Free gas provided more power or better MPG my trial couldn't detect it.
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Fleet Owner
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: Near Cal. Avenue
At stoich the fuels gasoline and alcohol are almost the same. It's the higher compression that helps alcohol and hurts gasoline. Fuel usage for the same amount of travel has to be up some with alcohol if everything is equal. If the compression is higher you then have gains. The real benefit is the big city air quality. Some of the other additives in gasoline have been very distructive. Much the same as old diesel fuel. That's my take of it. I personally like E85 in really hot weather. Driving at interstate 70 MPH + speeds hitting hot air of 110 degrees up from 103 and the power loss is noticeable with gasoline, not so with alcohol, it just keeps on pullen. Thing with E85 alcohol is it takes bigger injectors/fuel system to be a flexfuel, so you got more capability in the total fuel system, ignition systems/ engine management.
Lead Driver
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Eth mixing began in the late 70s into the early 80s as motors were being changed over to fuel injection from carburation.
The original idea was to reduce emissions due to the extra oxygen in combustion and less undesirable exhaust emissions.
Then politics grabbed it for the midwest farming and now it at a point you can't get rid of it.
Up to about 2000, the vehiches could not handle it with efficiency until senrors, PCM programming and hardware caught up, known as Flex.
Eth has less BTU heat content so makes less power in a gas engine.
Using a percentage mix allows the PCM to alter fuel tables to some degree and still able to run it.
The bottom line is the OX sensors sense the extra oxygen and make up for it with richer injection read as pooer fuel mileage.
When the fuel tables get out of limits and not able to correct enough is when you might see a code set.
To take care of all this, the OX sensors were made wider band, the programs were changed and the engine compression raised a bit to recover some of the lost power.
It depends on what engine, what year and what blend as to what happens for performance and drivability.
The original idea was to reduce emissions due to the extra oxygen in combustion and less undesirable exhaust emissions.
Then politics grabbed it for the midwest farming and now it at a point you can't get rid of it.
Up to about 2000, the vehiches could not handle it with efficiency until senrors, PCM programming and hardware caught up, known as Flex.
Eth has less BTU heat content so makes less power in a gas engine.
Using a percentage mix allows the PCM to alter fuel tables to some degree and still able to run it.
The bottom line is the OX sensors sense the extra oxygen and make up for it with richer injection read as pooer fuel mileage.
When the fuel tables get out of limits and not able to correct enough is when you might see a code set.
To take care of all this, the OX sensors were made wider band, the programs were changed and the engine compression raised a bit to recover some of the lost power.
It depends on what engine, what year and what blend as to what happens for performance and drivability.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: Near Cal. Avenue
Interesting with my 11 ta 12 flexfuel, I filled with E85 for $3.04 a gallon,24 gallons and just finished a 495 mile trip on 2 lane blacktops about 62 mph top speeds. Used 23 gallons and had to fill with 87 octane, cost $3.59 . E85 cost $70.00 for the trip and 87 Octane cost $83.00 to refil the tank.
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