E85 fuel
Posting Legend
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 30,255
Likes: 37
There is lots of info in the alternate fuels forum.
Basically it is not a good idea in older vehicles unless you have an upgraded fuel system. It will lower your mileage which will probably offset the price difference depending on the local subsidies. If you have a high compression engine it will help offset the loss in mileage but if your compression is low...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
http://www.answers.com/topic/e85
Basically it is not a good idea in older vehicles unless you have an upgraded fuel system. It will lower your mileage which will probably offset the price difference depending on the local subsidies. If you have a high compression engine it will help offset the loss in mileage but if your compression is low...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
http://www.answers.com/topic/e85
Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,231
Likes: 1
From: Near Fresno, California
I got stuck with a couple of tanks on my Bonneville trip. I have always bought the lowest grade gas (cheapest) with no problem. When my gas mileage dropped from 17 to 12 I started to pay attention. My performance also dropped.
I started to buy the mid-range grade, paying $3.30 a gallon for it. Mileage went up to better than 17, and performance improved a good bit. This was on a 4 liter EFI Jeep Cherokee pulling a 14 foot camp trailer across the high desert - elevation from 6 to 11,000 feet.
With the 85 octain gas I was often in low gear of a 4 speed auto overdrive while climbing the passes - with the 88 octain I pulled them in second.
Frankly, they can shove E85 up their rears - it is more expensive per mile, and yeilds poor performance.
btw, Gas was $3.67 in Yosemite Park. Buy 17 gallons of that and see how well you like the gas companies!
I started to buy the mid-range grade, paying $3.30 a gallon for it. Mileage went up to better than 17, and performance improved a good bit. This was on a 4 liter EFI Jeep Cherokee pulling a 14 foot camp trailer across the high desert - elevation from 6 to 11,000 feet.
With the 85 octain gas I was often in low gear of a 4 speed auto overdrive while climbing the passes - with the 88 octain I pulled them in second.
Frankly, they can shove E85 up their rears - it is more expensive per mile, and yeilds poor performance.
btw, Gas was $3.67 in Yosemite Park. Buy 17 gallons of that and see how well you like the gas companies!
Logistics Pro
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,952
Likes: 117
From: Upper Left Coast
If I'm not mistaken, E85 is NOT 85 Octane, It's 85% Ethanol. (E85 is actually 104 octane ....And by the way high octane fuel has no more BTU/gal than low octane fuel....octane is not related to energy content)
That's why you use more.....Ethanol has significantly lower energy content in BTU/gal than regular gasoline.
The info below was excerpted ffrom E85fuel.com:
regards,
Rick
E85 and Energy Content – how much energy is there?
What is the real energy content of E85? How many btus in a gallon of E85 in comparison to unleaded gasoline? For that matter, what is a btu? How far can a vehicle operate on E85 in comparison to gasoline? The first step in answering these commonly asked questions is to determine a common denominator.
There is only one common unit of measurement in reference to energy, the British Thermal Unit (btu). This is a standard unit for measuring heat energy. One btu represents the amount of heat required to raise one pound of water one degree Fahrenheit at sea level. More commonly, one btu is the energy produced by a typical wooden kitchen match.
According to the American Automobile Manufacturers Association, a gallon of typical gasoline contains 114,132 btu’s. However, even this amount of energy content changes from summer to winter as gasoline’s volatility is seasonally adjusted. For the purposes of this summary, we assume the following:
1 U.S. Gallon of gasoline contains 114,132 btu
1 U.S. Gallon of no. 2 diesel fuel contains 138,000 btu
1 U.S. Gallon of ethanol contains 76,000 btu
1 U.S. Gallon of methanol contains 56,800 btu
1 U.S. Gallon of propane contains 84,500 btu
1 U.S. Gallon of compressed natural gas contains 19,800 btu
Ethanol is denatured by adding 5 gallons of gasoline to 100 gallons of ethanol (4.76%), therefore:
Ethanol @ 76,000 btu/gal x 95.24% = 72,382
Gasoline @ 114,132 btu/gal x 4.76 = 5,433
Denatured ethanol = 77,815 btu/gallon
E85 is then a blend of denatured ethanol and gasoline, therefore:
Denatured ethanol @ 77,815 btu/gal x 85% = 66,143
Gasoline @114,132 btu/gal x 15% = 17,120
E85 = 83,263 btu/gal
In an arithmetic sense, 1 volumetric gallon of E85 represents 73% of the btu value of gasoline.
Should an assumption be made that if E85 contains 27% less btu’s than a gallon of gasoline, the vehicle will travel 27% less miles on the same number of gallons of fuel? Does this mean that it costs 27% more to operate a vehicle on E85 than on unleaded gasoline?
The answers to the preceding questions are NO! There will indeed be a loss in fuel mileage when a vehicle is operated on E85. Actual driving experiences indicate that the loss of fuel mileage in a vehicle using E85 will range from 5% to 12% depending on the driver and the conditions of the terrain.
That's why you use more.....Ethanol has significantly lower energy content in BTU/gal than regular gasoline.
The info below was excerpted ffrom E85fuel.com:
regards,
Rick
E85 and Energy Content – how much energy is there?
What is the real energy content of E85? How many btus in a gallon of E85 in comparison to unleaded gasoline? For that matter, what is a btu? How far can a vehicle operate on E85 in comparison to gasoline? The first step in answering these commonly asked questions is to determine a common denominator.
There is only one common unit of measurement in reference to energy, the British Thermal Unit (btu). This is a standard unit for measuring heat energy. One btu represents the amount of heat required to raise one pound of water one degree Fahrenheit at sea level. More commonly, one btu is the energy produced by a typical wooden kitchen match.
According to the American Automobile Manufacturers Association, a gallon of typical gasoline contains 114,132 btu’s. However, even this amount of energy content changes from summer to winter as gasoline’s volatility is seasonally adjusted. For the purposes of this summary, we assume the following:
1 U.S. Gallon of gasoline contains 114,132 btu
1 U.S. Gallon of no. 2 diesel fuel contains 138,000 btu
1 U.S. Gallon of ethanol contains 76,000 btu
1 U.S. Gallon of methanol contains 56,800 btu
1 U.S. Gallon of propane contains 84,500 btu
1 U.S. Gallon of compressed natural gas contains 19,800 btu
Ethanol is denatured by adding 5 gallons of gasoline to 100 gallons of ethanol (4.76%), therefore:
Ethanol @ 76,000 btu/gal x 95.24% = 72,382
Gasoline @ 114,132 btu/gal x 4.76 = 5,433
Denatured ethanol = 77,815 btu/gallon
E85 is then a blend of denatured ethanol and gasoline, therefore:
Denatured ethanol @ 77,815 btu/gal x 85% = 66,143
Gasoline @114,132 btu/gal x 15% = 17,120
E85 = 83,263 btu/gal
In an arithmetic sense, 1 volumetric gallon of E85 represents 73% of the btu value of gasoline.
Should an assumption be made that if E85 contains 27% less btu’s than a gallon of gasoline, the vehicle will travel 27% less miles on the same number of gallons of fuel? Does this mean that it costs 27% more to operate a vehicle on E85 than on unleaded gasoline?
The answers to the preceding questions are NO! There will indeed be a loss in fuel mileage when a vehicle is operated on E85. Actual driving experiences indicate that the loss of fuel mileage in a vehicle using E85 will range from 5% to 12% depending on the driver and the conditions of the terrain.
Last edited by HT32BSX115; Aug 23, 2006 at 11:20 PM.
Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,231
Likes: 1
From: Near Fresno, California
OK, I agree - octane rating is a measure of a fuel's tendency to self-ignite before the spark plug fires. It does not have anything to do with the amount of BTU (power) in the fuel.
Since I did not have any pinging I will buy the idea that E85 has a 104 octane rating. But the difference between 17 MPG and 12 is close enough to the 27% drop in BTU to convince me. Your quote suggests 5 to 12% drop in mileage - my experience was slightly less than 30%.
They suggest it has something to do with the driver and conditions - I was pulling the little six for all it was worth, and letting it unwind on the hills. It was hard and demanding service where one does not expect good mileage.
What makes me mad was that the pumps were not clearly marked as selling Ethanol. The octane rating sticker below the button used to select the grade of gas read E85, the other choices were 92 and 97 octane. I normally run 88 octane - so you can see my confusion.
I am not set up for E85, and wouldn't run it if I was. In this case it would have been cheaper to pay $4 for normal gas than $3 for E85, and I would not have strained my engine as much.
Since I did not have any pinging I will buy the idea that E85 has a 104 octane rating. But the difference between 17 MPG and 12 is close enough to the 27% drop in BTU to convince me. Your quote suggests 5 to 12% drop in mileage - my experience was slightly less than 30%.
They suggest it has something to do with the driver and conditions - I was pulling the little six for all it was worth, and letting it unwind on the hills. It was hard and demanding service where one does not expect good mileage.
What makes me mad was that the pumps were not clearly marked as selling Ethanol. The octane rating sticker below the button used to select the grade of gas read E85, the other choices were 92 and 97 octane. I normally run 88 octane - so you can see my confusion.
I am not set up for E85, and wouldn't run it if I was. In this case it would have been cheaper to pay $4 for normal gas than $3 for E85, and I would not have strained my engine as much.
Logistics Pro
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,952
Likes: 117
From: Upper Left Coast
It appears that E85 is only available in 4 locations in CA.......Where did you get it?
E85 In CA
Also I'll bet that that info that indicates that it might be only 12% less in mileage is not in a currently configured engine.....I.E. one that is designed to run well on gasoline. To get good mileage and power with E85 I'll bet you need to have high compression and advanced timing to take advantage of the higher octane.
When using E85 in a low compression engine(I.E. one that runs well on regular).......I think you will get pretty crummy mileage AND power. I'll wager those other numbers are probably "politically correct" to promote the use of E85.
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E85 In CA
Also I'll bet that that info that indicates that it might be only 12% less in mileage is not in a currently configured engine.....I.E. one that is designed to run well on gasoline. To get good mileage and power with E85 I'll bet you need to have high compression and advanced timing to take advantage of the higher octane.
When using E85 in a low compression engine(I.E. one that runs well on regular).......I think you will get pretty crummy mileage AND power. I'll wager those other numbers are probably "politically correct" to promote the use of E85.
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Originally Posted by WillyB
OK, I agree - octane rating is a measure of a fuel's tendency to self-ignite before the spark plug fires. It does not have anything to do with the amount of BTU (power) in the fuel.
Since I did not have any pinging I will buy the idea that E85 has a 104 octane rating. But the difference between 17 MPG and 12 is close enough to the 27% drop in BTU to convince me. Your quote suggests 5 to 12% drop in mileage - my experience was slightly less than 30%.
They suggest it has something to do with the driver and conditions - I was pulling the little six for all it was worth, and letting it unwind on the hills. It was hard and demanding service where one does not expect good mileage.
What makes me mad was that the pumps were not clearly marked as selling Ethanol. The octane rating sticker below the button used to select the grade of gas read E85, the other choices were 92 and 97 octane. I normally run 88 octane - so you can see my confusion.
I am not set up for E85, and wouldn't run it if I was. In this case it would have been cheaper to pay $4 for normal gas than $3 for E85, and I would not have strained my engine as much.
Since I did not have any pinging I will buy the idea that E85 has a 104 octane rating. But the difference between 17 MPG and 12 is close enough to the 27% drop in BTU to convince me. Your quote suggests 5 to 12% drop in mileage - my experience was slightly less than 30%.
They suggest it has something to do with the driver and conditions - I was pulling the little six for all it was worth, and letting it unwind on the hills. It was hard and demanding service where one does not expect good mileage.
What makes me mad was that the pumps were not clearly marked as selling Ethanol. The octane rating sticker below the button used to select the grade of gas read E85, the other choices were 92 and 97 octane. I normally run 88 octane - so you can see my confusion.
I am not set up for E85, and wouldn't run it if I was. In this case it would have been cheaper to pay $4 for normal gas than $3 for E85, and I would not have strained my engine as much.
Thread Starter
|
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,849
Likes: 0
From: S.C.
Guys,
Thanks for al the information, there are a few stores here in SC that has E85 however my engine is not high compression just a regular 302CID, so I'll stick with reg fuel.
Jaye
Thanks for al the information, there are a few stores here in SC that has E85 however my engine is not high compression just a regular 302CID, so I'll stick with reg fuel.
Jaye
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Postmaster
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,688
Likes: 4
From: Southern Oregon
I am in the process of gathering parts for a new Y-block which would be capable of running E-85 if that becomes all that is available in the future. One of the important attributes of the motor is a high compression ratio. 12:1 would be a good target. Brazilians accomplished the alcohol gulping Y's by using popup pistons and I think a CR of 11:1.
Other things have to be addressed like fuel delivery. No rubber, and in my case, no aluminum fuel cell. Aluminum carburetors are suspect too, given ETOH's corrosiveness.
Other things have to be addressed like fuel delivery. No rubber, and in my case, no aluminum fuel cell. Aluminum carburetors are suspect too, given ETOH's corrosiveness.
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Logistics Pro
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,952
Likes: 117
From: Upper Left Coast
I am considering getting a mixing valve for my F-600. I'll use propane in it for my local stuff and maybe gasoline for the "long" trips.
I have even thought about doing natural gas. you can get a compressor for that here:
If using propane or natural gas exclusively, you can "UP" the comp ratio too.
I have even thought about doing natural gas. you can get a compressor for that here:
If using propane or natural gas exclusively, you can "UP" the comp ratio too.
Originally Posted by 46yblock
I am in the process of gathering parts for a new Y-block which would be capable of running E-85 if that becomes all that is available in the future. One of the important attributes of the motor is a high compression ratio. 12:1 would be a good target. Brazilians accomplished the alcohol gulping Y's by using popup pistons and I think a CR of 11:1.
Other things have to be addressed like fuel delivery. No rubber, and in my case, no aluminum fuel cell. Aluminum carburetors are suspect too, given ETOH's corrosiveness.
Other things have to be addressed like fuel delivery. No rubber, and in my case, no aluminum fuel cell. Aluminum carburetors are suspect too, given ETOH's corrosiveness.
Senior User
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 495
Likes: 1
From: Somewhere in da corn,Iowa
i have run E85(being in Iowa..i feel a duty..not) without experiencing any power loss. I put it in my Contour SVT which is supposed to run Premium(92 or higher octane) and felt no power loss and no worse fuel economy. In our 98 Explorer with the 4.0 there was 1 MPG drop over the course of about 250 miles. I don't know if it is just me, or what, but I have not had a problem with E85 at all.
BUT..i wouldn't run it in my 54 F100 with a carb. 351W..becuase i have heard rumors that if you let ethanol sit for any amount of time (more than a couple days) it can clog your jets and just is not good for a carb. I don't know if this is true or not..but i dont want to take the chance of screwing something up on my truck now..i just got it the way i wanted and got to drive it before i came up to school.
BUT..i wouldn't run it in my 54 F100 with a carb. 351W..becuase i have heard rumors that if you let ethanol sit for any amount of time (more than a couple days) it can clog your jets and just is not good for a carb. I don't know if this is true or not..but i dont want to take the chance of screwing something up on my truck now..i just got it the way i wanted and got to drive it before i came up to school.
Last edited by fiftyfourdf100; Aug 24, 2006 at 02:27 PM.
Elder User
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 825
Likes: 3
From: Michigan
Do not run E85 in your vehicle unless it is a Flexfuel Model. Ethanol Alcohol is highly corrosive and will attack seals and generally corrode the engine. Two tanks are enough to start this. This info was just published in "Autoweek" Magazine this week's issue, piece by Denise McCluggage.
Fred
Fred
Last edited by fking1; Aug 24, 2006 at 04:09 PM.
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 576
Likes: 9
From: Rockford, IL
I found a website a year or so back that had instructions on how to convert a gas engine over to flex fuel. convert gas engine to flex fuel It looks like it might be pretty easy. I googled "mother earth ethanol" this was the first site. The second one had similar info. John
Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,231
Likes: 1
From: Near Fresno, California
Originally Posted by fking1
Do not run E85 in your vehicle unless it is a Flexfuel Model. Ethanol Alcohol is highly corrosive and will attack seals and generally corrode the engine. Two tanks are enough to start this. This info was just published in "Autoweek" Magazine this week's issue, piece by Denise McCluggage.
Fred
Fred
It is a good solvent and will clean out the crud in your system, which can cause a problem if the crud plugs something. If your fuel system is clean there will be no problem.
Most of today's fuels are some sort of blend with anything between 10 to 85% alcohol.
In the early years there was a problem with alcohol softening the natural rubber lines, that was fixed by going with the new neopream type hoses.
I will not run E85 because of the loss of power, but stories about the corrosiveness of it when blended with regular gas are just old wives tales perpetrated by lazy writers who do not bother to get the facts.
I will bet the new E85 engines use the same seals, pumps, filters and other components as the non-E85 engines. The differance between the two would be larger jets or injectors, and a higher compression ratio.
Posting Legend
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 30,255
Likes: 37
Originally Posted by WillyB
I could not find the article online, but whoever Denise McCluggage is, I wonder if he/she has ever had anything to do with alcohol. Alcohol has been in use for racing fuel for more than 75 years.
It is a good solvent and will clean out the crud in your system, which can cause a problem if the crud plugs something. If your fuel system is clean there will be no problem.
Most of today's fuels are some sort of blend with anything between 10 to 85% alcohol.
In the early years there was a problem with alcohol softening the natural rubber lines, that was fixed by going with the new neopream type hoses.
I will not run E85 because of the loss of power, but stories about the corrosiveness of it when blended with regular gas are just old wives tales perpetrated by lazy writers who do not bother to get the facts.
I will bet the new E85 engines use the same seals, pumps, filters and other components as the non-E85 engines. The differance between the two would be larger jets or injectors, and a higher compression ratio.
It is a good solvent and will clean out the crud in your system, which can cause a problem if the crud plugs something. If your fuel system is clean there will be no problem.
Most of today's fuels are some sort of blend with anything between 10 to 85% alcohol.
In the early years there was a problem with alcohol softening the natural rubber lines, that was fixed by going with the new neopream type hoses.
I will not run E85 because of the loss of power, but stories about the corrosiveness of it when blended with regular gas are just old wives tales perpetrated by lazy writers who do not bother to get the facts.
I will bet the new E85 engines use the same seals, pumps, filters and other components as the non-E85 engines. The differance between the two would be larger jets or injectors, and a higher compression ratio.
Alcohol racing fuel is not the same as the blends of fuel we have available for use in passenger vehicles. Alcohol racing fuel requires special fuel system components and it is drained from the vehicle fuel system and flushed after each race to avoid damage. It is not suitable for use as a passenger vehicle fuel.
There are two commercial fuel blends:
Gasohol is gasoline mixed with up to 10% ethyl alcohol. It is considered an oxygenated fuel due to the presence of an OH arm on the ethyl alcohol molecule. It can be used in newer vehicles with fuel systems that are compatible with it. Older vehicle fuel systems can be damaged by this fuel.
E85 is Ethyl alcohol mixed with 15% gasoline. It is only suitable for use in flex fuel vehicles that have the extra sensors, engine management systems, and fuel delivery systems that can deal with varying fuel mixtures.
There are no commercial blends between these two types of fuels.
Neoprene is OK with alcohol but should not be used with automotive gasoline. Buna-N can be used with both alcohol and automotive gasoline but most parts are made with Teflon derivatives now. Nitrile is not compatible. For more factual information check here:
http://www.efunda.com/designstandard...=Neoprene#chem
Any alcohol in the fuel can attract water which can corrode aluminum and steel parts in the fuel system. Vehicles produced after ~1985 have fuel systems that can deal with gasohol without problems.
Higher compression is helpful for use with alcohol fuels but the limiting factor is still the use of gasoline so compression, even on flex fuel vehicles, is limited to what the engine management systems can handle and still provide good fuel economy with regular non-alcohol gasoline.
For more factual information and a closer date than the above check the links I posted above and below. PLEASE READ THESE LINKS!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
http://www.answers.com/topic/e85