Dumb Question
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Postmaster
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From: Renton, WA
Dumb Question
I'm just trying to learn more about the IDI cause I just picked 2 up. And there's one thing I can't figure about the fuel system. With all the trouble around the injector return system why does it even need it?
I guess what I need to understand is the internals of the injector.
I guess what I need to understand is the internals of the injector.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: Mi'kma'ki
because the fuel is what lubricates and cools the injectors and injection pump.whatever is not burned circulates back to the tanks.this process alone causes condensation and why it's extremely important to always,always have a water separator on a diesel engine.
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as he said, the return fuel is critical to cool the injectors.
if you want to avoid return line problems, install a good return line kit (as we're already talked about in the other thread), then consider going with an electric fuel pump, so even if (when) it does leak down, it'll prime itself by the time the glow plugs have warmed up. there are tons of threads on the subject, so i won't go into tons of detail here. however, i might suggest you wait on that till you've fought air intrusion a couple of times, so you can better appreciate the improvement
if you want to avoid return line problems, install a good return line kit (as we're already talked about in the other thread), then consider going with an electric fuel pump, so even if (when) it does leak down, it'll prime itself by the time the glow plugs have warmed up. there are tons of threads on the subject, so i won't go into tons of detail here. however, i might suggest you wait on that till you've fought air intrusion a couple of times, so you can better appreciate the improvement
Logistics Pro
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,737
Likes: 179
From: Western Mass
Another dumb question
I've had my truck for about 5 years now, and haven't gotten even a single drop of water from the water separator. I don't remember any there when I changed the fuel filter shortly after buying. None came out 2 winters ago when I had the fuel light go own during cold mornings. None came out when I replaced the filter last year.
I'm pretty sure the issue is that any water will cause damaging corrosion in its trip through the injector pump and injectors. The water will not mix with diesel like you can cheat gasoline with alcohol treatments in the winter. The water probably shows up in some diesel sources from water leaking into tanks or directly into fuel tanks from dirt and water accumulating on top of the tank and rusting holes into it.
In my opinion, the injectors VW used in the 1.6L diesels (Rabbits, Jetta, Pickup, Vanagon) and Mercedes in the 300D, were a much better design. They had two little nipples coming right off the injector that you just looped together with small fuel line. No O-rings to deal with, no plastic caps to crack, just a fuel line.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,345
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From: Mi'kma'ki
WATER BUILD-UP
Water build-up in diesel fuel tanks is a universal problem across the nation. Almost any stored diesel fuel left for any amount of time will end up with water in the bottom of the tank; it's an even bigger issue for boats and marine storage tanks. Water sinks to the bottom of the tank because water is heavier than diesel fuel is. What's more, you don't even have to have a storage tank for this to happen - water even builds up in the fuel tanks of long haul trucks. The culprit in all of these situations is the venting of the tank to the outside air. Outside air packed with water vapor travels in and out of the tank. In storage tanks, the water from the air condenses and rolls down the side of the tank when the air cools down in the evening. In diesel vehicles, the temperature change comes from hot diesel fuel returning to the tank after being used to cool the injectors. Injectors get hot due to their tremendous pressures. The engine uses diesel fuel circulated from the tank to dissipate some of this heat. The now-hot fuel is then circulated back to the fuel tank. This temperature difference causes water condensation in this environment, even when the fuel isn't technically being "stored" for a long time.
So what's the problem with water build-up? Why does it matter? It matters, for the following reasons:
• As noted below, water allowed to accumulate in a tank increases the chance of a microbial infestation - bacteria and fungi which can play havoc with the fuel system.
• Water in a vehicle or boat fuel tank can be sucked up and circulated into the hot injector. When it reaches the hot tip, the water expands in volume by 40x, blowing the injector apart and sidelining the vehicle. Not a good thing when you are stranded and face a repair job.
• Water in fuel accelerates the oxidation and break down of the fuel.
• Water contributes to tank corrosion
All of these are good enough reasons to control the build-up of water in the tank; this is typically done by using some kind of concentrated fuel treatment.
Article Source: Most Common Diesel Fuel Problems
...............................
Water Contamination in Fuel: Cause and Effect
One of the most commonly thought of sources of water contamination is through condensation of atmospheric moisture to form liquid water. A research study shows that an empty 200 gallon fuel tank could contain a maximum amount of 22.8 grams of water vapor at 86ºF, and 12.92 grams at 50ºF[1]. These values do not account for all of the water observed. Condensation is only one of the many ways in which water can contaminate fuel tanks. Fuel travels through several intermediate facilities prior to reaching the end user. It travels from refineries, is pumped through pipelines, is shipped via truck and is stored in tank farms before reaching the fuel stations.
Author
Dr. Saru Dawar
Cummins Filtration
Dr. Saru Dawar has 7 years of experience in coalescence filtration research for air-liquid and liquid-liquid separation. She received her PhD in 2007 from the department of Chemical Engineering, The University of Akron. In her current role as a research engineer with Cummins Filtration, she is focusing on crankcase ventilation and fuel filtration research. She is a member of AFS and is also currently the chair of the AFS performance committee.
http://www.afssociety.org/articles/a...use-and-effect
Water build-up in diesel fuel tanks is a universal problem across the nation. Almost any stored diesel fuel left for any amount of time will end up with water in the bottom of the tank; it's an even bigger issue for boats and marine storage tanks. Water sinks to the bottom of the tank because water is heavier than diesel fuel is. What's more, you don't even have to have a storage tank for this to happen - water even builds up in the fuel tanks of long haul trucks. The culprit in all of these situations is the venting of the tank to the outside air. Outside air packed with water vapor travels in and out of the tank. In storage tanks, the water from the air condenses and rolls down the side of the tank when the air cools down in the evening. In diesel vehicles, the temperature change comes from hot diesel fuel returning to the tank after being used to cool the injectors. Injectors get hot due to their tremendous pressures. The engine uses diesel fuel circulated from the tank to dissipate some of this heat. The now-hot fuel is then circulated back to the fuel tank. This temperature difference causes water condensation in this environment, even when the fuel isn't technically being "stored" for a long time.
So what's the problem with water build-up? Why does it matter? It matters, for the following reasons:
• As noted below, water allowed to accumulate in a tank increases the chance of a microbial infestation - bacteria and fungi which can play havoc with the fuel system.
• Water in a vehicle or boat fuel tank can be sucked up and circulated into the hot injector. When it reaches the hot tip, the water expands in volume by 40x, blowing the injector apart and sidelining the vehicle. Not a good thing when you are stranded and face a repair job.
• Water in fuel accelerates the oxidation and break down of the fuel.
• Water contributes to tank corrosion
All of these are good enough reasons to control the build-up of water in the tank; this is typically done by using some kind of concentrated fuel treatment.
Article Source: Most Common Diesel Fuel Problems
...............................
Water Contamination in Fuel: Cause and Effect
One of the most commonly thought of sources of water contamination is through condensation of atmospheric moisture to form liquid water. A research study shows that an empty 200 gallon fuel tank could contain a maximum amount of 22.8 grams of water vapor at 86ºF, and 12.92 grams at 50ºF[1]. These values do not account for all of the water observed. Condensation is only one of the many ways in which water can contaminate fuel tanks. Fuel travels through several intermediate facilities prior to reaching the end user. It travels from refineries, is pumped through pipelines, is shipped via truck and is stored in tank farms before reaching the fuel stations.
Author
Dr. Saru Dawar
Cummins Filtration
Dr. Saru Dawar has 7 years of experience in coalescence filtration research for air-liquid and liquid-liquid separation. She received her PhD in 2007 from the department of Chemical Engineering, The University of Akron. In her current role as a research engineer with Cummins Filtration, she is focusing on crankcase ventilation and fuel filtration research. She is a member of AFS and is also currently the chair of the AFS performance committee.
http://www.afssociety.org/articles/a...use-and-effect
Logistics Pro
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,737
Likes: 179
From: Western Mass
That first one, Yup, I've read that before I think. Care to post something NOT written by a fuel additive company??? Because that WHOLE articles is basically just an advertisement.
But! if thats true, who is stealing the water from my fuel tanks, I'm not lying when I say NONE is coming out of the fuel filter. According to that article, I should have gallons of water running through my injector pump at this point...
Some quick math from that second blurb... We don't have 200 gallon tanks. Somewhere between 16 and 19 depending on front/rear and truck setup. So thats at tank less than 10 times smaller than that study. Dropping 36 degrees goes from 22.8 grams of water vapor to 12.92 grams of water vapor, which is about ~10 grams, or 10 mL of water, wait!! thats a HUGE 200 gallon tank, ours would only be about 1mL of water. And thats saying that you have a completely empty tank thats full of super humid air, and EVERY day EVERY bit of air in that tank is replaced with FRESH super humid air. And under the magically perfect conditions, 1 ml of water might condense out. More realistically speaking, you're going to at max, have 1-2mL condense out over the span of one tankful of fuel. And thats only if the water vapor can actually find a surface cold enough (below the dewpoint) to condense on. Since the engine is heating the fuel up, the tank will be warmer than surrounding objects so nothing will actually condense out.
Here's a better article:
Also see the discussion in this thread (starts with the same article).
The Myth of Condensation in Fuel Tanks - www.ifish.net
I wish Mythbusters would do this one. I'd be very interested in the results.
BTW, I've heard that leaking tanks are HUGE issues with dump trucks, as dirt is likely to collect on the top of the tanks, which traps water and road salt and rusts the top of the tanks, then water can freely flow in. Especially true if the bed isn't solid (same for some flatbeds!) If the bed doesn't stop the water, every time it rains it could be filling the tank.
But! if thats true, who is stealing the water from my fuel tanks, I'm not lying when I say NONE is coming out of the fuel filter. According to that article, I should have gallons of water running through my injector pump at this point...
Some quick math from that second blurb... We don't have 200 gallon tanks. Somewhere between 16 and 19 depending on front/rear and truck setup. So thats at tank less than 10 times smaller than that study. Dropping 36 degrees goes from 22.8 grams of water vapor to 12.92 grams of water vapor, which is about ~10 grams, or 10 mL of water, wait!! thats a HUGE 200 gallon tank, ours would only be about 1mL of water. And thats saying that you have a completely empty tank thats full of super humid air, and EVERY day EVERY bit of air in that tank is replaced with FRESH super humid air. And under the magically perfect conditions, 1 ml of water might condense out. More realistically speaking, you're going to at max, have 1-2mL condense out over the span of one tankful of fuel. And thats only if the water vapor can actually find a surface cold enough (below the dewpoint) to condense on. Since the engine is heating the fuel up, the tank will be warmer than surrounding objects so nothing will actually condense out.
Here's a better article:
Originally Posted by David Pascoe
The Myth of Condensation in Fuel Tanks
by David Pascoe
Frequently we hear it said that the cause of water in fuel tanks is due to condensation. I have long doubted this assertion but the issue has come up so frequently that I was finally motivated to try prove to the point. The basis of my belief or assumption is that:
There isn't enough air volume within a tank to hold much vapor.
On average, tanks are half full, further reducing volume
The amount of water vapor in air is very small, even at 100% humidity
Conditions aren't right to cause condensation in a fuel tank
Research produced the following values for the maximum amount of liquid water in air at the following temperatures:30C/86F 30 grams/cubic meter
20C/50F 17 grams/cubic meter
10C/13F 9 grams/cubic meter
There are 28 grams per ounce, so 30 grams = 1.07 oz; 17 grams = 0.6428 oz.
A cubic meter equals 264 gallons of liquid volume, therefore:
A 200 gallon tank = 0.76 cubic meter.
At 86F, an empty 200 gallon tank could contain 22.8 grams of water vapor, or 0.81 oz.
At 50F, an empty 200 gallon tank could contain 12.92 grams of water vapor, or 0.46 oz.
Note that this is the maximum amount of water vapor that a completely empty tank could contain, in neither case a full ounce of water.
In order to condense water out of the atmosphere a surface must be much colder than the air. The problem for the condensation in tank theory is; how do we end up with a fuel tank that is much colder than the air? One way would be to have a very cold day that suddenly warms up dramatically, but when does this ever happen? The weather can turn cold very fast, but does not suddenly get very warm.
Aluminum is second only to copper for rapid heat transfer properties; it will therefore adjust to atmospheric temperature changes quickly. Gasoline and diesel fuel, like water absorb [sic] heat and cold slowly. Thus one might expect to see sweating on the outside of a tank as the day warms up from cold mornings, but do we? Well, I can say that after 35 years of inspecting boats, I've rarely seen tanks sweating. Note: Sweating may be likely to occur with boats in very cold waters when warm days are encountered.
This issue first came up a number of years ago over a question of whether internal engine rusting could be due to condensation caused by sudden temperature changes as from day to night and vice versa. Since that time, inspection of hundreds of engines showed that rust only occurs on the underside of valve covers due to water contamination of the oil. Very few engines have rusty undersides of valve covers, thereby proving the point that ice cold engine blocks in the morning don’t sweat at it warms up during the day. If that is true, then how could it be true that fuel tanks sweat?
My answer is that they don’t and these calculations prove it. My initial assumptions were correct. You do not need to store or lay up your boat with full fuel tanks. If you are getting water in your fuel, it is getting there some other way.
Contaminated Fuel
Years ago we had serious fuel contamination problems due to underground steel storage tanks that rusted and leaked. Today all tanks are fiberglass, so this no longer happens (that I know of). However, those underground tanks do have fill plates on the ground surface (usually the parking lot) that can leak just like your boat deck plate. As the marina pumps its tanks nearly dry before the next fuel delivery, those who buy fuel from the near empty tank are the ones that are going to get the water (because it's pumped from the bottom of the tank). This despite the fact that the dock fuel pump has a water separating filter. I've opened the panels on occasion and have found the sight bowls completely filled with water, so at this point the water is being passed on to the customer. Next time you buy diesel, ask to see the filter at the pump! You have to remove the lower pump panel to see it.
However, it is important to note if you're getting water from your fuel retailer, chances are that it won't be a small amount. Most likely it will be a lot and your filters will fill up and engines crap out post-haste.
Leaking Fill Caps
By far the most common cause of contaminated boat tanks are deck fill caps that leak. Most of these things are stupidly mounted flat on decks which may puddle with water. The cap has a tiny little O-ring that is supposed to seal and keep water out. DOES IT? I wouldn't depend on one of these things unless I could prove that it doesn't leak. Check the condition of the o-ring and weather it is sealing.
One way to check positively is to clean the o-ring seat thoroughly; next apply some black or any color paint to the o-ring and screw the cap in place, tight. Then remove it and see if the paint has been completely transferred to the ring seat. If not, you now know where the problem is.
Another problem is the simple failure to seat the cap fully after refueling. This actually happens a lot, so check to see if the cap is loose.
The Tank Vent
Improperly located fuel tank vent fittings are one of the top causes of water getting into tanks. When this is the cause, if you are a salt water boater, then it will be salt water in your tank. A fuel tank vent fitting on the side of the hull should be angled down and aftward. If angled in any other direction, you've got a problem that needs fixing. Watch out for deteriorated plastic and zinc alloy fittings; some of these things deteriorate incredibly fast.
The vent line should have a riser loop on the inside. That is, it travels upward first, then downward. If not, that is another potential problem.
Check the Fuel Gauge Sender
One final possibility is the fuel gauge sender plate on top of the fuel tank. These are often made of steel or have steel screws that can rust away, a situation I've seen several times. Is water puddling on the tank top? Test all screws with a screw driver to make sure they are securely seated.
by David Pascoe
Frequently we hear it said that the cause of water in fuel tanks is due to condensation. I have long doubted this assertion but the issue has come up so frequently that I was finally motivated to try prove to the point. The basis of my belief or assumption is that:
There isn't enough air volume within a tank to hold much vapor.
On average, tanks are half full, further reducing volume
The amount of water vapor in air is very small, even at 100% humidity
Conditions aren't right to cause condensation in a fuel tank
Research produced the following values for the maximum amount of liquid water in air at the following temperatures:30C/86F 30 grams/cubic meter
20C/50F 17 grams/cubic meter
10C/13F 9 grams/cubic meter
There are 28 grams per ounce, so 30 grams = 1.07 oz; 17 grams = 0.6428 oz.
A cubic meter equals 264 gallons of liquid volume, therefore:
A 200 gallon tank = 0.76 cubic meter.
At 86F, an empty 200 gallon tank could contain 22.8 grams of water vapor, or 0.81 oz.
At 50F, an empty 200 gallon tank could contain 12.92 grams of water vapor, or 0.46 oz.
Note that this is the maximum amount of water vapor that a completely empty tank could contain, in neither case a full ounce of water.
In order to condense water out of the atmosphere a surface must be much colder than the air. The problem for the condensation in tank theory is; how do we end up with a fuel tank that is much colder than the air? One way would be to have a very cold day that suddenly warms up dramatically, but when does this ever happen? The weather can turn cold very fast, but does not suddenly get very warm.
Aluminum is second only to copper for rapid heat transfer properties; it will therefore adjust to atmospheric temperature changes quickly. Gasoline and diesel fuel, like water absorb [sic] heat and cold slowly. Thus one might expect to see sweating on the outside of a tank as the day warms up from cold mornings, but do we? Well, I can say that after 35 years of inspecting boats, I've rarely seen tanks sweating. Note: Sweating may be likely to occur with boats in very cold waters when warm days are encountered.
This issue first came up a number of years ago over a question of whether internal engine rusting could be due to condensation caused by sudden temperature changes as from day to night and vice versa. Since that time, inspection of hundreds of engines showed that rust only occurs on the underside of valve covers due to water contamination of the oil. Very few engines have rusty undersides of valve covers, thereby proving the point that ice cold engine blocks in the morning don’t sweat at it warms up during the day. If that is true, then how could it be true that fuel tanks sweat?
My answer is that they don’t and these calculations prove it. My initial assumptions were correct. You do not need to store or lay up your boat with full fuel tanks. If you are getting water in your fuel, it is getting there some other way.
Contaminated Fuel
Years ago we had serious fuel contamination problems due to underground steel storage tanks that rusted and leaked. Today all tanks are fiberglass, so this no longer happens (that I know of). However, those underground tanks do have fill plates on the ground surface (usually the parking lot) that can leak just like your boat deck plate. As the marina pumps its tanks nearly dry before the next fuel delivery, those who buy fuel from the near empty tank are the ones that are going to get the water (because it's pumped from the bottom of the tank). This despite the fact that the dock fuel pump has a water separating filter. I've opened the panels on occasion and have found the sight bowls completely filled with water, so at this point the water is being passed on to the customer. Next time you buy diesel, ask to see the filter at the pump! You have to remove the lower pump panel to see it.
However, it is important to note if you're getting water from your fuel retailer, chances are that it won't be a small amount. Most likely it will be a lot and your filters will fill up and engines crap out post-haste.
Leaking Fill Caps
By far the most common cause of contaminated boat tanks are deck fill caps that leak. Most of these things are stupidly mounted flat on decks which may puddle with water. The cap has a tiny little O-ring that is supposed to seal and keep water out. DOES IT? I wouldn't depend on one of these things unless I could prove that it doesn't leak. Check the condition of the o-ring and weather it is sealing.
One way to check positively is to clean the o-ring seat thoroughly; next apply some black or any color paint to the o-ring and screw the cap in place, tight. Then remove it and see if the paint has been completely transferred to the ring seat. If not, you now know where the problem is.
Another problem is the simple failure to seat the cap fully after refueling. This actually happens a lot, so check to see if the cap is loose.
The Tank Vent
Improperly located fuel tank vent fittings are one of the top causes of water getting into tanks. When this is the cause, if you are a salt water boater, then it will be salt water in your tank. A fuel tank vent fitting on the side of the hull should be angled down and aftward. If angled in any other direction, you've got a problem that needs fixing. Watch out for deteriorated plastic and zinc alloy fittings; some of these things deteriorate incredibly fast.
The vent line should have a riser loop on the inside. That is, it travels upward first, then downward. If not, that is another potential problem.
Check the Fuel Gauge Sender
One final possibility is the fuel gauge sender plate on top of the fuel tank. These are often made of steel or have steel screws that can rust away, a situation I've seen several times. Is water puddling on the tank top? Test all screws with a screw driver to make sure they are securely seated.
The Myth of Condensation in Fuel Tanks - www.ifish.net
I wish Mythbusters would do this one. I'd be very interested in the results.
BTW, I've heard that leaking tanks are HUGE issues with dump trucks, as dirt is likely to collect on the top of the tanks, which traps water and road salt and rusts the top of the tanks, then water can freely flow in. Especially true if the bed isn't solid (same for some flatbeds!) If the bed doesn't stop the water, every time it rains it could be filling the tank.
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Postmaster
Joined: Oct 2008
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From: Renton, WA
OK so I was curious enough that I just went and took an injector off my parts engine and pulled it apart.
I know I'm rather new to the IDI but from what I saw about how they work I see 4 reasons why they need a return, 2 of the biggest not even mentioned here. The biggest being that without the return they would not work. That for the pintle to open the space above it needs to allow it. If the space above it wasn't vented to return it would not open. Second being lubrication and third being air removal. With the injector being virtical and air moving past tight clearances easier then fuel any air will escape through the return system, much easier then into the cylinder. Cooling being last, the most important portion of that being the cooling of the tip of the pintle.
FORDF250HDXLT so your saying we are paying $4/gal for water, great
I know I'm rather new to the IDI but from what I saw about how they work I see 4 reasons why they need a return, 2 of the biggest not even mentioned here. The biggest being that without the return they would not work. That for the pintle to open the space above it needs to allow it. If the space above it wasn't vented to return it would not open. Second being lubrication and third being air removal. With the injector being virtical and air moving past tight clearances easier then fuel any air will escape through the return system, much easier then into the cylinder. Cooling being last, the most important portion of that being the cooling of the tip of the pintle.
FORDF250HDXLT so your saying we are paying $4/gal for water, great
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Postmaster
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From: Maple Valley, WA
OK so I was curious enough that I just went and took an injector off my parts engine and pulled it apart.
I know I'm rather new to the IDI but from what I saw about how they work I see 4 reasons why they need a return, 2 of the biggest not even mentioned here. The biggest being that without the return they would not work. That for the pintle to open the space above it needs to allow it. If the space above it wasn't vented to return it would not open. Second being lubrication and third being air removal. With the injector being virtical and air moving past tight clearances easier then fuel any air will escape through the return system, much easier then into the cylinder. Cooling being last, the most important portion of that being the cooling of the tip of the pintle.
FORDF250HDXLT so your saying we are paying $4/gal for water, great
I know I'm rather new to the IDI but from what I saw about how they work I see 4 reasons why they need a return, 2 of the biggest not even mentioned here. The biggest being that without the return they would not work. That for the pintle to open the space above it needs to allow it. If the space above it wasn't vented to return it would not open. Second being lubrication and third being air removal. With the injector being virtical and air moving past tight clearances easier then fuel any air will escape through the return system, much easier then into the cylinder. Cooling being last, the most important portion of that being the cooling of the tip of the pintle.
FORDF250HDXLT so your saying we are paying $4/gal for water, great
You hit the nail on the head... The only reason for the returns on the injectors themselves, is to return "leakage" past the moving parts in the injector... There isnt enough fuel flowing through the injectors to cool anything... The only other point of the return system is to keep air out, and make sure that the pressures in the pump are maintained...
All are important though, and a good leak free return setup is worth every penny...
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Postmaster
Joined: Oct 2008
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From: Renton, WA
Hey Neighbor...
You hit the nail on the head... The only reason for the returns on the injectors themselves, is to return "leakage" past the moving parts in the injector... There isnt enough fuel flowing through the injectors to cool anything... The only other point of the return system is to keep air out, and make sure that the pressures in the pump are maintained...
All are important though, and a good leak free return setup is worth every penny...
You hit the nail on the head... The only reason for the returns on the injectors themselves, is to return "leakage" past the moving parts in the injector... There isnt enough fuel flowing through the injectors to cool anything... The only other point of the return system is to keep air out, and make sure that the pressures in the pump are maintained...
All are important though, and a good leak free return setup is worth every penny...
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